Diplomate of Acupuncture Joyce Kawalchuk discusses TCM, 5 elements, cosmetic acupuncture, gut health, farmers markets and needle alternatives. She also discusses marketing tips, her clothing line and ways to stand out if new in town.
Joyce Kawalchuk is a Diplomate of Acupuncture by NCCAOM and attended the Eastern School of Acupuncture and Traditional Medicine. She has training in Traditional Chinese Medicine (TCM), Classical Five Element Acupuncture, Japanese Acupuncture, Western Medical Theory, Cupping and Eastern dietary therapy. She has clinical experience working at the Veteran Affair (VA) Health Care System as well as the spa and wellness industry and is now flying solo in her West Valley Phoenix location.
Many patients come in as a last resort. Blood work and other tests are within range but they are still experiencing issues and symptoms and the patient knows they just aren’t right. Musculoskeletal pain is most common reason people seek acupuncture but also depression, smoking cessation, lose weight and more.
Blood work and other tests are within range but they are still experiencing issues-try acupuncture
– Musculoskeletal pain is most common reason people seek acupuncture
Should you use needles , cold laser or acupressure?
Should you insert the needle deep or shallow?
when should you use a TCM vs a 5 elements acupuncturist? pain vs global symptoms
Since she knows several styles of acupuncture, are there certain points that are standard and how does she pick the best points?
Fire, earth, metal, water and wood are the 5 elements, learn a little about them and how treatment changes based on this approach versus a more prescriptive TCM basis. When should you see a Five Element vs TCM
– the 5 elements, learn a little about them and how treatment changes based on this approach
Her major focus on picking what type of acupuncture and where to stimulate points is based on the intake and taking a detailed history. Pain management and digestive and gut health is a big passion of hers. She focuses on how food choices, cold vs warm properties (Eastern thoughts) and more can heal the gut issues you may be having. Joyce also approaches Eastern ideas like only drinking warm water in a more delicate way so people can incorporate them into their lives.
-. Pain management and digestive and gut health is a big passion of hers.
Reasons to think about the texture of food. What type of marketing does she do at farmer’s markets? How does being “warm” or “cold” natured affect your food choices?
How does being “warm” or “cold” natured affect your food choices?
Do you have to believe in acupuncture so that it works? Your outlook could help but is it necessary. Natural pain substances are released with this treatment.
What is cosmetic acupuncture? Does it work, is it as striking as the medical route? Fine lines, darkness under the eyes, acne, and rejuvenation or just a few of the cosmetic scope that she is good at. The key is helping collagen and elastin production, revitalize that matrix and restore elasticity and lifting in the skin. Tune in to find out the protocol for these amazing cosmetic acupuncture benefits, it is not as many as you think.
-cosmetic acupuncture . The key is helping collagen and elastin production, revitalize that matrix and restore elasticity
When is a good time and age to begin cosmetic acupuncture?
What is the point of cupping and what are a few of the variations including gua-sha?
When you are new in town or just opening a clinic, Kawalchuk recommends focus on your education and expertise and present that to the community. Capitalize on your skills and what you have to offer, especially if you don’t have the funds to advertise a lot.
Capitalize on your skills and what you have to offer, especially if you don’t have the funds to advertise a lot
If you are thinking about being a licensed acupuncturist, you need to experience first. Also find a mentor to show you what to expect and inform you about the field.
Future of acupuncture is growing because they are showing up in hospitals.
Joyce enjoys volunteering at the local Woman’s Club.
She has a custom clothing business www.janaktull.com that has one of a kind colorful and funky stuff including yoga pants and light jackets and just plan Fun patterns and we geek out about it near the end of the episode.
Make time for your significant other. She does QiGong exercise (slow moving motions focused on breath and intention) along with a slow morning routine to get focused for the day.
www.brainfacts.org articles about neuroscience
Food Lover's Cleanse by Sara Dickerman in association with Bon Appetite
David Purlmetter Brain Maker Power of Gut Microbes to Heal and Protect your Brain
www.joycekacupuncture.com Instagram joycekacupunture
Show notes can be found at www.adoctorsperspective.net/35 here you can also find links to things mentioned, the Travel Tip and the transcript.
Justin Trosclair 0:02
Episode 35 acupuncture one on one, gut health and cosmetic acupuncture. I'm your host Dr. Justin shows clear today we're licensed acupuncturist choice
for doctors who want a thriving practice and abundant home life. Listen as your host, Dr. Justin Charles Claire goes behind the curtain. Can you hear us doctors and guess about real world
practical tips and entertainment on this episode of a doctor's perspective. want to give a shout out to the international crowd which makes up about 30% of the podcast so far, Japan, Bangladesh, China, Nepal, India, Germany. Thanks so much for listening. Now today on the show, we're going to talk about acupuncture or first acupuncture on a doctor's perspective podcast, we're going to go into traditional Chinese medicine. What are the five elements cosmetic acupuncture, which I didn't really know much about, and it's kind of cool how to help gut health and then she discusses cool things like the farmers market for marketing. What are some ultra those two needles and at the end of the episode, she's got this pretty cool side hustle that we'll talk about for a few minutes. a doctor's perspective, net slash three, five. Without further ado, let's go hashtag behind the curtain.
podcast. Welcome back to the show live from China today. We have an amazing guest a first time on the program profession. We have a traditional Chinese medicine, classical five element acupuncture, mixed in with some Japanese acupuncture Western medical theory, who has da healthcare experience, spa and wellness industry and is now serving the West Valley Phoenix area with acupuncture and Eastern diet dietary therapy. Welcome to the show. licensed acupuncturist Joyce. Koala check.
Hi, thank you for having me.
Justin Trosclair 1:51
Absolutely. Like I mentioned we haven't had an acupuncturist on and I'm so excited to dive deep into everything that I just said, Please, you do things called cosmetic acupuncture. I don't really know what that means. Exactly. So I'm excited to pick your brain like crazy today. Definitely. Well, let's just start from the jump. How did you decide to become a licensed acupuncturist?
I think acupuncture and traditional Chinese medicine really encompass a lot of my personal interests into, you know, into the one profession. And I think that acupuncture is really helping to fill fill a gap in the current health care model, and helping to satisfy a shift towards more preventative medicine versus a curative kind of health care model. And I really like helping patients who have reached a point of kind of hopelessness in with the conventional medicine. And a lot of times people will come into my office and say that I'm their last resort. And that makes me really happy because I'm glad they found me and I think acupuncture really thrives in a in
kind of that idiopathic gray area of where people's, you know, all people's blood panels and test results are within range, but they still don't feel better. They don't feel well. So I think the acupuncture really helps address those types of issues for people think give us a
Justin Trosclair 3:23
quick laundry list of what are some of the most common, I'm not sure. If you're you know, if you call it conditions or like if there's any proper terminology that you can and can't use based on your credentialing, like a natural path, can't say certain things. Right, right. But what what do people come in for the most common top five, six things that they come in for?
A lot of times what is initially bringing a patient into my office is some kind of pain, whether it be you know, purely musculoskeletal, and you know, back or neck pain, migraines, or a more emotional kind of pain or discomfort, like depression, anxiety, but it's usually pain, discomfort that's affecting quality of life. And then, you know, through the through the intake and evaluation, then we get more on the conversation of all of the other things that are related and can arise from that discomfort.
Justin Trosclair 4:20
Hmm, I've heard before that you guys, your profession is able to help with smoking cessation and weight loss, is that something that you deal with as well? or What is your opinion on that
I do, I definitely help patients that are either trying to quit smoking lose weight, and it's more from a, you know, holistic approach kind of addressing all aspects of health, taking a look at what's contributing to these today, these conditions or concerns.
And then, you know, supporting with acupuncture and lifestyle recommendations, dietary therapy, things like that. Okay,
Justin Trosclair 4:58
so I work everyday with TCM doctors, and so I see how they do it here and they have like this, almost think of it as like dry needling, they go so deep with a needle. But then I know how some chiropractors have learned acupuncture, and it has the little tube and you know, just kind of taps in and it's only like a couple of millimeters in Is there a best practice? or How are you trained to do the needles,
it really depends on you know, personal style and whatever the practitioner learned. But basically, you know, for more cosmetic treatments, I use needles that are eight millimeters in length.
And they're you know, they're not going that deep into the into the skin. But I also do orthopedic acupuncture where sometimes you can
you know, depending on if it's like a, an issue in the pure form, so you might need a three inch needle those longer needles that you're talking about.
Today address, you know, different areas of the body. So it really depends on what what your needling.
Justin Trosclair 6:01
Okay, I've I've seen in different magazines and like not magazines, but like posters that that classical five elements would fire,
what are they, it's a fire earth metal water would,
Justin Trosclair 6:14
okay, so if someone came in, say they have sciatica, or like low back pain, and there's this is my guess. And then you correct me if I'm wrong, maybe there's three or four points that any TCM person would touch, but then you might have like 15 needles in You are the last 10 based on all these comorbidities that they have, as well as trying to make sure that the wood in fire or balanced then maybe those are not balanced to doing what you have to do to balance all of those at the same time. So there's different TCM practitioners will have different points for the same condition.
Yeah, definitely there is a so more TCM approach would be almost like a point prescription and and based on the pattern that you're treating, do you know whether it's excess deficiency, all of those, all of those traditional patterns. But where the five element comes in is that's more, the way that I use it in practice is it's more through, you know, throughout intake, and assessing someone's overall constitution and seeing what element they tend to identify with more based on the condition or recurring themes in in their health and wellness history. And then yes, those would be more supportive points, there are purely five element treatments that only you know only use the five element points to address the individual on a constitutional level and they don't really treat you know, sciatica or migraine or things like that. It's always always treating the Constitution and the primary element or CF as it would be in in the classical five element acupuncture. Ah,
Justin Trosclair 7:59
so if someone was only trained and prescriptive point TCM, they would look at the five element just to be like, What in the world is going on? Like you're not hitting? Maybe any other point that I would have? Maybe because you're looking at it differently? Maybe
Yeah, and even some of the points are a little bit different than then classical, traditional Chinese medicine, like point location is a bit different between the two.
Justin Trosclair 8:21
Okay, so when you're looking at the meridian charts, right, exactly, wow. Yeah. Do you mind when you have that much knowledge? I know, I can get bogged down on like a cold laser therapy, you know, like, all right, what should I use? Sometimes on the program, you've got the TCM points, you're going to have the five element points being that you have some Japanese acupuncture training as well, that's probably gonna be a little bit different. And then you got your feet hands were technically you can do the entire body on just the feet, just the hand, just the ears, right? How How do you
pick? That's it? That's an interesting question. And it really just depends on the intake and evaluation and what the, what the patient is trying to achieve? And what you know, from clinical experience, what is your best method of helping them achieve that. So it's, it's really nice, having a lot, you know, having a broad scope of different, you know, different areas of focus, to apply the most appropriate one to an individual.
Justin Trosclair 9:20
So if somebody was say, they're like, dude, I really don't want a three inch needle in my buttocks. Can you just work? Can you just do something on my hands? Or I really don't want you to like, Yeah, do everything in the hands of that's all they allow you to do.
Yeah, and that's, that's another thing, you know, being flexible with patients who don't like certain areas needled or patients who aren't comfortable lying face down, but they have back pain. So treating back pain from from the front with with a patient line, you know, on their back and using other points that still achieve, you know, pain relief, right?
Justin Trosclair 10:00
Does someone have to believe in all of this stuff? Or to work?
Great question. No, that is, that is one of the misconceptions about acupuncture and the profession, is that you need to believe in in it and, you know, believing in a treatment, whether it's a Western medical treatment, Eastern, any kind of therapy can't hurt, you know, it's, it can help. It can help prognosis in terms of, you know, your overall outlook on the treatment, if you feel positively about it. But it's still a physical treatment, I'm inserting needles, it's creating a physical response within the body, it's helping, you know, different different substances released in your body and natural painkillers. So those are going to be released, whether you believe it or not,
Justin Trosclair 10:48
very good. Okay, what would you consider your specialty in the office? What's your passion,
I really like dealing with pain management. It is one of the one of the closely associated things with acupuncture that it treats pain, but also, I really like dealing with digestive health. And I think digestive health and gut health, from an Eastern perspective, is so important. And it's, it's even more important than the brain in a lot of cases in in Chinese medicine. So gut health and digestive health, dietary therapy is kind of like
your continuing care between treatments. And in comparison with like a Western medical treatment, if you were to receive the prescription, and you have to take it daily, or as you know, as as prescribed, your food can be that in from what I do, that's what I like to focus on.
Justin Trosclair 11:49
So here's the follow up, then, when I hear dietary therapy, I'm thinking maybe some herbs and certain teas that you have to drink that probably tastes horrible, because they, they they really are good. But living here, I also heard a lot of things like the air conditioning, if the wind blows on the acupuncture points, that cool breeze will go down the needles, and make every condition you have worse. drinking cold water is going to make your digestion horrible. That's why you should drink hot water all the time. And if you have diarrhea, is because I've been eating ice cream.
Yeah, I learned these things too. Okay, so it's not just thing that I've picked up wrongly
know, I've definitely heard that and, you know, getting that across to two people in a more you know, in the US and people with like high, high stress lifestyles and who aren't really accustomed to traditional Chinese medicine, I really try to focus on getting those concepts across in a way that's accessible and applicable towards modern life.
So I very rarely tell someone that you know, to not to drink ice cold water because it's gonna you know, ruin their digestion but I'll definitely make some suggestions to move towards at least room temperature or you know, depending on what season it is things like that.
Justin Trosclair 13:17
Have you ever just tried not to drink? Yeah, exactly.
That's awesome. So do you have like a room full of herbs to put not prescribed but to recommend to people to drink for certain dietary elements?
I don't actually I really focus on food therapy. Okay, with you know, just preparing and cooking, enjoying preparing food from a five element perspective and making making well rounded meals in terms of texture, flavor, energetic of the food, whether it's you know, cooler warming, things like that. So I because I feel like Earth and supplements are it can be it can be very daunting for my my patient demographic. So I really try to stress you know, easy simple solutions that can be just you know, picked out at the grocery store.
Justin Trosclair 14:13
I thought I'm talking more than usual On this episode, but I will continue okay. Warming foods, cooling foods, something that comes to my mind they said if I eat too many mangoes it's going to create more heat in my body and I could get either pimples or a nosebleed okay accurate What do you think and tell the listeners what is what is the difference with cold food a hot food and maybe what's the basic concept in though and like how you should be picking things
it really depends on your you know, your own constitution whether you tend to be tend to be a warmer person or a cooler person you know, some people are very aggravated by the cold cold weather or some really enjoy dry heat you know, I live in Arizona people people moving from New York and dealing with dampness and and coming to the dry desert, you definitely see a lot of changes in health as well. And notice, even notice differences and pulses and how they feel and you know feeling dampness and pulses more on the East Coast versus feeling more like lung, lung, the acuity here in the dry desert. So it's really all dependent on what is going on with the individual. And so if you have a very, you know, hot natured person, meaning they they have excessive sweating like true full heat, you know, redness flaring up towards the face, migraines, a lot of excess, then it wouldn't be a good idea for them to eat an excess of hot foods, you know, hot natured foods like spicy foods that would warm up metabolism and kind of exacerbate symptoms. And then I'm
Justin Trosclair 15:52
guessing you could probably go online and do a search and they probably would have hot foods cold foods, just say I have a basic idea of like, interesting concept. Now I know what some of these foods could be maybe I'll avoid those for a couple of weeks and just see how I respond. You know,
the herbal medicine has a lot of information about the energetic of food and herbs.
Justin Trosclair 16:11
Very nice. Now on to something I'm curious, I'm even more curious about cosmetic acupuncture, please take it away. Of course, I don't know anything about it.
So the whole concept is that it's a it's a gentle and natural alternative to other more invasive procedures that are that are available to people looking for, you know, not age defense and facial rejuvenation. So did reduction in fine lines, darkness under the eyes, swelling, rosacea, acne, I deal with a range of ages, from you know, teens dealing with hormonal acne to you know, people in their, in their 60s and 70s. Looking for more just natural rejuvenation of the facial, like the skin integrity, and good cosmetic acupuncture, the style that I practice is it's focused on the face, obviously, to help collagen and elastin production, revitalize that matrix, restore elasticity in the skin and help with overall lifting. But also, it will always address the entire body. Because if you're just trading the face, and you don't have a healthy body to hold the treatment and to support the treatment, then your results aren't going to be as effective. Hmm,
Justin Trosclair 17:32
how, how many visits? Are we talking to see results? And then how long do the results last four?
It depends on age and what the you know, what concerns are so big part of the initial intake is establishing establishing goals what your you know, what are your areas of concern, and then what I think the appropriate amount of treatments would be for them to get the results that they're looking for.
Justin Trosclair 17:57
But usually more than two or three, right? Yeah,
so usually, the cosmetic treatments are more strict in the in the protocol. So they're recommended twice a week for five weeks. So 10 total treatments. And that's that's how long it takes to re stimulate collagen and elastin production at the dermal layer of the skin. Okay,
Justin Trosclair 18:18
so as a as a more Dr. Based podcast is that something that we just see results are their studies out there in journals that show that it actually does something, there are
studies with facial acupuncture, it's more in my clinical practice, I'd always take before and after photos, detailed photos so that the patient can see. But their you know, their results are not like Botox or fillers by any means. It's a more it's a more gentle, natural approach. It's going to be more subtle than fillers, for sure. Right? But it's a natural look, you don't you don't look like you have fillers in your face.
Justin Trosclair 18:56
Okay, might have that something about you a little different.
Exactly. That's exactly what people will hear after getting facial acupuncture, like, you know, you're glowing, you look more vibrant. Did you change your hair, things like that. But it's, it's, it's subtle, but very effective. I like that.
Justin Trosclair 19:12
Do you have a? I think you've already kind of said it. But do you find that the best results are bags under the eyes are like a little bit of wrinkles on the crow's feet? Or on the forehead? Is there anything particularly that you're just like, Man, you got to do it, I see it on your face, you would be amazing, you get great results, probably, these are my favorite things that I could do.
Yeah, so ideal age would be to start in your 30s. Because that's when that collagen elastin matrix starts to do, you know, break down just naturally. So getting a kind of preventative step on it, if you start in your 30s, then you can just maintain from there. And then it would be very minimal, you know, like Fine, fine lines around the eyes.
It could be very, very responsive to that kind of treatment. So that would be ideal.
Justin Trosclair 20:06
I want to know, what are a couple of the common misconceptions about your profession.
So one of the one of the biggest misconceptions or or apprehensions about acupuncture is that I work with needles and doesn't hurt. And once you can get over that initial, you know, initial anxiety, a lot of people have anxiety about needles, just because from birth, were kind of bombarded with these vaccinations and immunizations. And there's such a stress response related to needles in a healthcare setting. Once they can get over the fact that it's actually very relaxing, then that misconception is, you know, debunked.
Justin Trosclair 20:48
Do people find that it's once the needles are in you probably the first couple of needles, I'm sure it kind of freaks people out if they're kind of apprehensive about it. But once they're in there, maybe 1015 minutes later, they noticing any kind of pain or discomfort or what's what should they experience
1015 minutes in, they should be they should be relaxed, they should be having a great time that you should either be sleeping or just resting. You know, I retain needle so they're their retained for about 30 minutes. And a lot of people fall asleep. Some sub will experience some like twitching, or what I call settling your body kind of adjusting to the changes that are happening, whether it's due to muscle relaxation, or you know, different circulation happening in certain areas. But usually it's it's stillness and relaxation.
Justin Trosclair 21:41
Do you dive into the electric acupuncture or the Moxie? That's the stuff they burn on top and it stinks.
Do you dive into any of those things?
I do electro acupuncture for sure. It's great for pain management, arthritis, things like that. And then maka, I I don't do it currently in my space just because of you know, ventilation purposes. And I'm working working close to other other people within a med spa. So the smell can be a little bit.
A little bit much for somebody jail. Yeah, exactly.
Justin Trosclair 22:19
I will win every day.
You could tell you,
you walk on the floor of acupuncture here that does it. Yeah, the whole the whole somebody like, Oh,
I know what's going
Justin Trosclair 22:31
As far as copying, you do copying, right, I do copying? Yes. What's the point? What does it do? And do you have to have gigantic hickeys after
you will if there's if there's an issue, it's actually good to get that kind of bruising response because that shows that kind of stagnation is is being moved and giving your body the chance to release toxins and detoxify. But the point is, it's kind of like a reverse an inverse massage. So with with massage, you're applying pressure with the cupping, it's applying negative pressure in a sense. So creating that air vacuum is helping with circulation, it can help you know muscle injury, adhesion, and just kind of lift stagnant blood in Chinese medicine to the surface where it can be removed at that level and filter out you know, through the system.
Justin Trosclair 23:29
Do you kind of do more sure, like what the trigger points or the Tinder spots? Or is it based on an actual like system in the in the traditional Chinese medicine arena?
I definitely do both. I definitely do that the offshoot actually points and trigger point therapy if someone is having pain referred pain especially for trigger points. So I'll use both for sure.
Justin Trosclair 23:53
Do you ever do like the cupping mixed with some gosh ah style.
I don't usually mix cupping and guava. I'll do one one or the other. But I usually usually mix acupuncture and cupping or acupuncture and blah.
Justin Trosclair 24:07
And what is it gotcha.
Gotcha is a it's like a scraping technique with a device like a you know, traditionally a soup spoon to create some similar to the the effect as the cupping, you know, you're you're bringing blood to the surface of the skin and allowing kind of circulation to increase and impurities to release.
Justin Trosclair 24:31
And a public service announcement. If anyone's thinking that's whoo stuff. That's what you call myofascial release with soft tissue instrument assisted tools, aka grass, then hot grips, rock, whatever they're called rock tape tools, all these different tools that you do that you've learned in school. That's what wash is great. They just have a different theory behind it. But really, it looks the same. Yes. In results. Yeah. Do you ever do. I went to a hospital. And I've never seen this before he used a skin puncture, punctured the skin, then cut it to where all this gooey, interstitial fluid in blood came out.
Have you ever done that? Is that something that's normal to do?
I have not I I'm pretty sure that's not. I don't think that's I think it's Condor indicated in, in the US. But we go basically just because you know, the cups, and sterilizing them and having an autoclave and all that stuff can be a little bit little bit of a hassle. I
Justin Trosclair 25:33
like to hear it. I was I was shocked when I saw it. And I didn't know if that was pretty common. Or if that was just this one guy is doing some crazy stuff.
I've definitely seen it. And it's pretty, it's pretty intense. But I mean, the results that you can see in those videos afterward look pretty good. There we go.
Justin Trosclair 25:51
Let's see. So we all have unique abilities, what would you say is one of your mindsets or strategies that set you apart from any of your competition part even compared to like the medical field?
Sure, I really like to focus on my initial visit, I focus heavily on intake. And there is a treatment after that once I come up with a treatment plan. But I really like to understand, understand the context of what the patient is dealing with and how how it affects their quality of life beyond what they can just write in there, you know, initial paperwork. So I really like to investigate, I like to understand that the whole picture as much as I can. I also focus on empowering patients to organize all of these different aspects of their health history, and their future health and wellness goals and organize it in a way that's meaningful and beneficial to them and help them reorient you know, the healing properties that are already within them.
Justin Trosclair 26:53
Are there any things that we should be wary of? Like if if someone's like, Okay, I've got to go see an acupuncturist. I obviously don't live in Phoenix. Are there any red flags that we should look for to disqualify somebody are things that we should say, okay, they mentioned or they do certain things that makes me excited that I should use them? How do we pick somebody that's
in terms of good of choosing a practitioner? Correct? I would say just research? Well, what would disqualify them, this is, you know, if they're not licensed, that wouldn't be, that wouldn't be a good idea. There are some acupuncturists that aren't licensed. There. Also, I know that certain professions can practice acupuncture. So it just depends on what you're what you're looking to achieve. If you're going, going for a more chronic issue, I would recommend seeing an acupuncturist versus, you know, another professional that does acupuncture as well, just because they're going to really address the whole system. And in terms of like finding the right practitioner for you, I wouldn't recommend going to a five element practitioner, like a solely five element practitioner, if you have period of, you know, a musculoskeletal issue or, or, or a an injury, I would go to an orthopedic acupuncturist, you know, it kind of like picking picking your specialist in a way, but there are acupuncturist that practice multiple different specialties. So it's just research. I think it was a great answer.
Justin Trosclair 28:27
Thanks. Yeah, switching gears a little bit for the license acupuncture practitioners out there who maybe are just starting out, they just graduated, and they're struggling, are there any, like practical steps that they could do to try to get to where you are in practice right now,
definitely, I have, I have a lot to say about this. Just because, you know, especially with relocating myself from from New York to Arizona, with very little professional network here in Arizona, and then opening my my own practice here, they're definitely recommend patients I would make, and that's in the beginning, if you're trying to open your own practice, a lot of the time, you don't have a lot of, you know, financial support, or, or resources like that. So at that point, I would really recommend kind of experimenting with working and reworking your education to your benefit, meaning, you know, compiling all of your experience thus far, your professional, your personal and capitalizing on your skill, and what you have to offer, even if you don't have the funds to support, you know, advertising, and all all of these startup costs. Just really, really bring together what makes you unique, and bring that to your community, get to know your community, the people that are most likely going to come and see you. It is a lot, a lot less of an impact than, you know, big advertising through a company that costs you know, hundreds of dollars per month. But if you start small and get to know a few people, that's where you can can build up for a lot of community education as to what you're good at, not just what is acupuncture?
Justin Trosclair 30:06
Exactly. Because there is a there is a need and people are people are looking people are living with these conditions. And it would be almost a desert disservice if you didn't let people in your immediate area know that you can help them.
Justin Trosclair 30:23
Sometimes you have to go after the low lying fruit, those who are looking for it before you can start educating everybody as to why you should try exactly a new. Okay, what about a college kid? Maybe someone coming out of high school, maybe they're in their first year of college? What kind of advice would you give for someone who's maybe looking at what to do in life or they want to do acupuncture,
my first recommendation would be to get acupuncture. to, you know,
try it out. See, if you've been like it, if you if you can't stand getting acupuncture, you probably not going to like giving acupuncture. So that was that was be a good place to start. And then another recommendation would be to find, to find an acupuncturist to maybe like, be your mentor, someone that can inform you about the field before you go ahead and commit to the education.
Justin Trosclair 31:15
The education pretty costly.
It can be for sure. It's the starting at $20,000 and up per year, and then depending on where you go.
Justin Trosclair 31:25
This is how long is it?
It's a three to four year Pro, either masters or doctoral program. Wow. Okay.
Justin Trosclair 31:32
Yeah. So you're looking at by the same price as every other profession out there that's medical based?
Yeah, they're very similar. Okay.
Justin Trosclair 31:39
All right. And I'm assuming financially, that there's a definitely a payoff for the education, right. There's, there's a way to make a living, and be successful and prosperous as you want.
There is definitely and that, like I said, it just takes being more creative with your time, especially in the beginning, if you don't have, you know, after school, you have these loans that you have to repay, and how are you going to invest in your business when you have all of this debt, but that's when you really have to capitalize on the amount of time that you have and use it wisely and use it creatively? Definitely.
Justin Trosclair 32:13
happen to have staff? I do not at the moment. I'm just I'm a solo practitioner.
Justin Trosclair 32:19
Very good. Now, we mentioned market and you mentioned, mostly getting out in the community? Do you have any couple tactics? Perhaps if you are going to spend some money? Where would you spend it? And then what is it an effective strategy to try to meet people,
I would say, my, my best investment, best return on investment has been my local farmers market, the Glendale farmers market, that is, you know, there's a cost to have a booth and as an acupuncturist, getting the opportunity to start a conversation with local people at an event where they're already coming for, you know, for whatever reason, that would bring them to a farmers market. Yeah.
Know that that's a potential patient. And they're already interested in you know, supporting local, they're interested in fresh produce, supporting local business, so that it's a really, I would, I would highly recommend that I'm very, very big supporter of that. And also investing in a website and a nice website. And that's just going on the concept of people are looking for help, they are looking for your services. And you just need to make sure that you're easily your you know, you can be easily found and you're conveying your message in as clear away as possible. I gotta
Justin Trosclair 33:36
give you props because your website it's crisp, it's clean, it doesn't give you a whole lot of fluff is just I just thought it was good. It was very it was informative, but not overflow informative. And it's it's just it's professional
Justin Trosclair 33:48
get a good if you did it or somebody else did it. They did a pretty good Yeah, I
did. I did I just use that I use Weebly, actually, which I is a great startup website, program. And you can really get through creative with it.
Justin Trosclair 34:00
Very nice. You know, I like to market I'm just brainstorming here. When you said farmers market, you were talking earlier about warm food in code food, and it's organic stuff. So it's only going to be stuff that's been growing seasonally, I'm just like, wow, you could like get somebody's email, have a pre made list of hey, these are the things you should be buying Exactly. Like our I'll give you the handout today, since you're shopping. Yeah, go ahead and put back that and put this back and buy these instead, or has just a great way to you know, once you get some of these emails, it's it's all like the marketing says situation,
do that if you're going to do these events and go go out places, always make sure you have a way to get contact information to you know, keep keep the exposure open and keep letting them know all of the ways that you can help them This made me think
Justin Trosclair 34:44
do you guys gals ever do cold laser acupuncture for people who are like, I cannot do needles? Or is there a way to do this without any needles at all
you can do you can do cold laser for sure. I don't currently have that in my practice, but I know know, quite a few who do with with great results. You can also do acupressure, which would be just manual stimulation of the points without needles. That's great for children, mostly, in my experience, but there are there are options.
Justin Trosclair 35:14
Okay. I know somebody out there is probably saying Not in a million years. are you touching me with 20? needles? I know. I know.
I meet them frequently.
Justin Trosclair 35:25
Just like just trust me people come on. Yeah. What about you five year goals? How do you know if they're worthy of pursuit? And what do what maybe what is one of them
five year goal? Definitely expanding my practice getting a few more treatment rooms, maybe making a more integrative wellness space, and also establishing more integration within other other health care communities with more, you know, more doctors, more specialist, things like that. And I think that's totally worth doing. Because the intent would be to provide the best care for the patient. And with that in mind, those are definitely future goals to pursue.
Justin Trosclair 36:03
So as an acupuncturist could you work, you can have your own solo clinic, can you work in a spa setting, or a medical doctor setting as well? Okay, so depending on where you're at, and who you are, and who, you know, all of these are available.
Initially, when I came, when I moved to Arizona, I was expecting to do something similar to that to, you know, be a contracted position, but it just worked out the way it worked out that I just opened my own practice. But there are a lot of opportunities in hospitals especially now there are a lot of kind of sanctioning is moving towards the hiring of of alternative practitioners in hospital settings. Yeah, that is that is more recent news in the alternative health care profession.
Justin Trosclair 36:50
So financially, is that an option that would allow you to afford to live and pay off your student loans and have kind of like a quality of life? Or is the real the salary for that type of position? A little less than desirable right now?
I think it could be I think it would require a, you know, more hours than private practice, probably, and Maven, maybe even, you know, having different facilities that you contract with, but I think it's definitely possible.
Justin Trosclair 37:21
Very nice. will get you excited about the future you Where do you see your field going over the next few years
think acupuncture is thriving currently, especially in the US. One of one exciting thing for the profession happened last summer 2016, the Bureau of Labor Statistics gave acupuncture its own occupational code. So what that means is prior to prior to that acupuncture was only seen as a modality. And now it's going to be recognized as a profession and acupuncturists are going to be seen as professionals on a federally recognized, which means great opportunity for the profession in beyond private practice, integrating with potentially VA hospitals having acupuncture be covered by Medicare, things like that. So I definitely think acupuncture is thriving, and it's progressing and expanding as a profession.
Justin Trosclair 38:18
Good job. I wasn't aware of that at all.
Yeah, it's it's good news. Do you take insurance? I do work with insurance companies, depending on you know, whether their plan covers it or not. Okay. It's just the main,
Justin Trosclair 38:30
it is advantageous for a practitioner to get on these planes if if they're able to.
Yeah, it also helps with patient compliance, for sure. There are a lot of people who will will go and get treatment
Justin Trosclair 38:43
very good. You don't have to answer this one. But if someone's completely no idea about acupuncture, and a cost, is there, like a range that's kind of considered more normal, versus someone who's on the top 1% of charges?
I think so. I think a more average range would be 60 to $80 per treatment. In a private practice, that would be average. And then you have community acupuncture, which of course is going to be cheaper than that, because it's you're in a shared space, you're getting treatment with multiple individuals versus the private room. And then you have the opposite end of the spectrum, where I know some people are charging $500 for treatments.
Justin Trosclair 39:27
Wow. Alright, so we need to tap into that market.
Justin Trosclair 39:33
Yeah, that is an incredible jumping pressure.
You have to be very certain in your abilities.
Definitely. And you've got to be offering a whole bunch of value there for sure.
Justin Trosclair 39:44
Yeah, hats off to those guys. Yeah. So let's switch gears a little more personal, you have your own clinic, that means you probably work in lots of hours, how do you take vacation? And is there a way to take more,
I think I'm a firm believer in vacation. Right now, the vacations that I've taken are just on the weekend. And that's, you know, either driving distance or a short flight somewhere more so because I'm still, you know, still in the early stages of business here in Arizona. So that's a priority for me to be around and be available. But in the future, more vacation is definitely possible. If you or if you know, if you want to plant a family, things like that, what you would most likely do is take on an associate and expand the practice in that way and get a few more people on the administrative and to help make that a possibility. I like it.
Justin Trosclair 40:35
Pretty good answer right there. Do you have any kind of volunteering or hobbies or anything that is that you're passionate about besides acupuncture?
I do. Definitely. I I volunteer with the Glendale Women's Club, which is the the local Women's Club in my city. And they're, they're kind of mission statement is unity in diversity. And I really like doing that because they have all different different volunteer opportunities for you know, health and wellness for environment, getting involved in government, politics, all different areas where you can kind of hone in on so I really enjoy doing that. And it also really like selling I have a a clothing business with my sidekick. We create custom clothing. That's a definitely a passion of mine. Yeah.
Justin Trosclair 41:25
You have a website for that. You want to share it?
I do. It's it's called the website is gigantic. tell.com It's ga and AK. T you ll.com
Justin Trosclair 41:40
Yeah, kind of stuff can they find on there? That's pretty interesting. It's our websites more of like a look book of our some of the designs that we've created. And it's pretty it's pretty funky stuff. It's pretty colorful and and fun. It's just fun.
Justin Trosclair 41:57
Oh, hang on.
You know opened your site. Okay, there we go. Look at that.
Yeah, it's definitely a unique
Justin Trosclair 42:06
know create this yourself or
we do we we create all of our pattern, we cut and so everything and it's everything is one of a kind. You never make the same piece more than once. Wow. y'all gotta look at this.
Justin Trosclair 42:19
They're like some wraps. I don't know what you call them. like a like a when a girl is in a movie theater and Nicole. They bring that little jacket with them.
They're like, funky patterns. Oh my god. Yeah, this is after my own heart. Paisley's
baby yoga pants to Yeah, big. I'm big on Paisley for sure.
Justin Trosclair 42:36
Wow. Yeah. Don't just listen to me. Wow. And Ooh, about the design. If you like colors and patterns, this is going to be it right here. Yeah, check it out a lot of fun. Wow, that's cool. Yeah, you got some good stuff on here. Thanks. Where's this beach?
That's actually on lb I in New Jersey. It's like a little little island off the coast of New Jersey.
Justin Trosclair 42:55
Oh, my goodness. How would somebody want to purchase this if they wanted to?
We have a link on the bottom of the website where you can just contact us directly?
Justin Trosclair 43:03
There it is. Send me an email.
Justin Trosclair 43:09
Yeah, that was fun. Okay, awesome. How long has that been going on? For?
my sidekick actually started the business maybe five years ago? And then I joined forces with him three years ago.
Justin Trosclair 43:21
Okay. Yep. That's fun.
As far so homework life balance is we kind of mentioned it, but is there any other topics that you'd like to discuss to try to create that I'm off work now. It's not what's home lifetime versus always bringing your work home. And it kind of consuming you all the time. As a business owner, what would you say?
That's an important one, and especially being a solo, you know, owning and operating my practice, and I'm very much able to leave, leave my office and not think about the day of what happened, you know, whatever took place, but then I get home and and there are managerial things that need to be done. And all of the all of the business owner stuff that if I don't do it after work, then when do I do it? And then in addition to the sewing, so kind of juggling all of these things and making sure you know, at a certain hour, it's just everything's off? No, no. no distractions, and neither, you know, watch a movie or something to kind of totally disconnect.
Justin Trosclair 44:22
Yeah, that can be tough. Yeah. Okay. Do you have a time when not one not a fast and furious time zone? But is there a time of the day we just like, all right, I don't care what's going on. I have to unplug.
before bed. I don't sleep with my phone near the bed, I put it in the closet and close the door. And like, totally, totally disconnect.
Justin Trosclair 44:40
There we go. Yeah. Are you married or a significant other?
I have a significant other is my sidekick? Who we do the selling together? We live together as well. How do you?
Justin Trosclair 44:51
How do you find that? Well, I guess wasn't you both are a part of it that actually makes the sewing a little bit more easier? Because you're doing it? I would assume? Yeah. How do you keep the love alive and feel connected on a regular basis? In the podcast, we we always find that a lot of doctors end up maybe they gained the world, but then they lose their entire family isolated divorce people. So trying to find out like, what can you do to not have that happen?
Really just folk, you know, make those make establish those boundaries. And you feel like you both kind of have to commit to those boundaries and be willing to have a time where you're both not distracted by whatever else is going on. Like my sidekick is in dental school. He's going to be a dentist and he's so we'll both be in the healthcare profession. And have to deal with all of the stuff that goes along with that. But weekends are definitely our time trying something new. Every weekend has been an ongoing theme.
Justin Trosclair 45:48
Wow, that's that'd be tough. Because if if you're full time plus a side business, he's got a side business and he's in school. Yeah. Both know how much effort that took? Oh, yeah. Yeah, you got to make a priority for your your relationship. Yeah.
And it happens, it happens quite easily. But there are days where it's more of a, you know, you really have to commit to being focused on what's important. Absolutely,
Justin Trosclair 46:09
completely agree with that one. Do you happen to have any kind of morning or lunch routine that gets you excited and grounded for the rest of the day?
In the morning, I really just like having a lot of time, like a few, at least three hours before I go into work to just kind of ease into the day, I'm usually alone with my dog at that point having coffee or tea, and that's probably my daily, my daily routine. And then I do a bit of like a Qi Gong exercise in my actual office to kind of prepare once I'm at work
Justin Trosclair 46:40
three hours do you start later wake up early?
I wake up early, or or start late which whatever the day, whatever the day needs?
Justin Trosclair 46:49
Okay? Did you say Chico?
Yes, it's a it's an ancient Chinese kind of practice. It's within the scope of traditional Chinese medicine more are so like slow moving, exercises based on focused on breath and breathing and intention.
Justin Trosclair 47:06
Something else to Google later on? Yeah, favorite books? Do you have a favorite book, blog podcast that you secretly love, and one that you would recommend for everybody to check out?
I do. This is my, this is my nerdy pleasure. It's called brain facts.org. And it's basically just an online resource of information regarding current studies on brain the brain nervous system and neuroscience because that's actually a an area of interest for me even though it you know, as a Chinese medical practitioner, it's you almost never consider the brain as a as a part of the overall diagnosis. But that's a that's something I'd recommend and they have really cool studies current current research regarding all different aspects of neuroscience. And then other than that, there's this book that I was really enjoying lately. It's called the food lovers cleanse it's by Sarah determine in association with bone appetit. And that's that's a really good resource for simple meals. And eating seasonally.
Justin Trosclair 48:17
That's good. What bone appetit. That's a pretty stable right there.
Justin Trosclair 48:21
So high praise for that book. Yep. All right. Any other ones.
Other than that, I really enjoyed. I feel like I read if I'm going to spend time reading a book it is usually to learn something. I don't read much fiction, more, you know, more books about like, gut health, like brain maker was really good. I forget the author for that. I'm sorry, but no worse. That's good. Good read for sure.
Justin Trosclair 48:46
Okay, good enough for me. And our last question is totally for fun. Favorite phone app business. Our pleasure,
Pinterest, Pinterest, for sure. That is a creators haven. You can go on there and learn do most any kind of goods for sewing good for crafting, you know, weekend projects. I love Pinterest.
Justin Trosclair 49:08
Do you use it in conjunction to sell products?
I don't I haven't tapped into that yet. But yeah, it's more just for just for pleasure and finding out how to do different things.
Justin Trosclair 49:18
I know I have a Pinterest board just for cute Basset hounds.
Yeah, that's, that's essential. For sure.
Justin Trosclair 49:26
We were like so do you have a basket on you like I did once. I do not have any dogs. Now I just like to look at the picture. There you go. Very good. Well, how can people find out more information about about you,
you can go to my website, Joyce K, acupuncture com, they have information on there. I also have Google Plus and Instagram, where I post more frequently.
Justin Trosclair 49:51
What's your Instagram handle?
Instagram is Joyce K. Acupuncture,
Justin Trosclair 49:54
I had a great hour with you. I've learned a lot. It's been really has been a good for me.
This has been a exciting to share with you. And thank you for the opportunity to discuss kind of my journey thus far.
Justin Trosclair 50:07
Well, we appreciate it. And I just hope that 2017 is going to be one of your best years ever.
Thank you. Thank you so much, Dr. Justin.
Justin Trosclair 50:17
Joyce, thank you so much for being on the show. My goodness, we covered a lot today. My knowledge has expanded on acupuncture. I hope everybody else has to this is definitely a profession that a lot of people have questions about. And so I hope they got some good answers and inspire somebody to maybe refer to an acupuncturist. And by all means, check out did not tool.com to see her clothes, pain, gut health cosmetic. Now we know some more about acupuncture, all the show notes, a doctor's perspective, net slash three five travel tip coming up next.
Somebody was asking me the other day, they said I'm 30 pounds overweight, which is more than what it used to be, I've got no motivation to go to the gym. But I know I need to do something. That's what that's what my book is about. You can't go from eating 3000 pounds is dropping them to 18. without some kind of plan. I can help you get there. And all the little steps in between. Maybe you can only exercise for five minutes. But start there, don't feel guilty about it. And then work yourself up to that 30 minute goal that everybody says you should do. That's what the books about you can get a doctor's perspective. NET slash free ebook or you just buy it on Amazon as a paperback or Kindle. If you notice on our website, we have all these pop ups where you can get a 12 exercises for your neck and low back core strengthening. We also have stretches for numbness and tingling that are in the arms, feet hands, I want you to know we have merchandise at a doctor's perspective. NET slash shop mean we've got t shirts and logo podcast gear that I would be so thankful if you got definitely post a picture on social media and and tag me and I'll give you a shout out. As always, you look at the top right of the website, we have all the little social media icons, just pick the ones that you like to use the most followers, you're going to get quotes from the each week's episode. You know, if you sign up on an email, you'll get all the updates and important announcements. So as always, I appreciate you. I'm thankful for you listening. And as you'd like to leave a review on iTunes, Stitcher or wherever you listen, have you much obliged.
Weekly travel tip today always wash your fruit really well. You never know what type of pesticides might be on it or other kinds of chemicals. So just do your due diligence scrub them down. Some people even peel them like they feel the apple. I don't really like to go that far. But they do say sometimes if you're traveling in a foreign country, maybe don't eat too much fruit just in case your digestion doesn't handle it very well. Alright, have a good week.
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