E 82: What’s Hurting The Optometry Profession, Drs John Ormandos Scott Colonna OD

a doctors perspective e 82 uppercut colonna ormandos

Dr. John Ormandos OD and Dr. Scott Colonna OD talk to Dr Trosclair on A Doctors Perspective Podcast

In an optometry clinic, what position is best to hire? Perks to not working in a big box store, online sales, focus on growth, Rx for kids, and how to motivate your children to be productive adults. Drs John Ormandos and Scott Colonna OD of Uppercut.

How and why did Dr’s Ornado and Colonna pivot from seeing patients full time to starting a consulting firm for optometrists?

What was their transition plan from doing everything in an optometry clinic themselves to delegating? Like most, optometry doctors are not trained in business so you learn by trial and error or try to learn from other people.

When looking to hire your first employee to someone beyond just answering the phone, (think optician, medical assistant, office manager) what position and order should that be? You are a doctor, probably not a great manager.

Reasons to and not to work in a big box store versus private practice?

How are Online Glasses and Contact Retailers affecting optometry clinics? There can be quite a price discrepancy between an online pair of glasses compared to going to your local optometrist… what else are you getting besides a pair of frames?

When you get out of school, you have to work even harder than you can imagine. Also, if you are complaining about seeing too many patients, what is going on? Why are so many people unwilling to change to be successful? Change takes work, time and effort but it’s the only way to get to the next level.

What do you do if your optometry staff doesn’t want to go along with the change?

When looking to hire a consultant, a lot of us especially the first few years out of school, we tend to get hung up on the cost of their service. However, if we reframe what we are paying for, it’s actually growth of your business.

Where do optometrists have the greatest potential to increase their revenue? For instance, dry eyes are a medical condition and we discuss how that could be a way to imporove your clinic.

If you can’t do retinoscopy to check a kids vision, you should learn. Are the devices that the staff use to get a base line of your prescription good for children and adults?

When marketing a new optometry clinic, is going around introducing yourself to everyone possible still effective?

When we are looking to hire a consultant, the big question you could ask yourself is: Have they been where I want to go… Have they done it, or are they just talk? Should you pay a monthly fee and a percent of growth or not?

We talk role models and what’s happened them: dads, football coaches and wall street.

This week we pinpoint how to be good fathers instead of just good husbands especially when you travel and have multiple businesses each. How to teach your kids to be exceptional and spend quality time with each. When you were raised lower middle class, and your kids are raised mid to upper and don’t know the struggle to have a nice house and car… how and what do you teach for motivation (work ethic and respect) for them to be productive adults?

Books: Grant Cardone, Sell or Be Sold Ray Daleio Summary of Principles

Facebook: uppercut consulting www.uppercutadvantage.com

Dr. John E. Ormando is a senior partner at Uppercut Consulting and Westminster Eyecare Associates. He has his Doctor of Optometry degree at the State University of New York College of Optometry. Dr. Ormando completed a three month internship with world-renowned glaucoma specialist Murray Fingeret and a three month internship in Corneal Disease and Specialized Contact Lens Fitting .

Dr. Scott A. Colonna is a senior partner at Uppercut Consulting and Westminster Eyecare Associates. He has his Doctor of Optometry degree from the State University of New York College of Optometry Dr. Colonna completed internships in primary care and ocular disease as well as and infant and pediatric care.

Show notes can be found at www.adoctorsperspective.net/82 here you can also find links to things mentioned and a transcript of the interview.

Full Transcript of the Interview (probably has some grammatical errors). Just Click to expand

Justin Trosclair 0:02
Episode 82 What's hurting the optometry profession? We host Dr. Justin

shows clarity today we're dr. john Armando and Dr. Scott Kalona perspective

join 2017 podcast Awards Nominated host Dr. Justin Foursquare as he gets a rare to see look into the specialties all types of doctors and guess plus marketing travel tips, struggles, goals and relationship advice. Let's hear a doctor's perspective

Hey welcome back Hope you guys were able to nominate us for the podcast awards calm under health and wellness I appreciate it who one month less than a month and I will be a daddy wow so crazy you know we're going to spend a month at the hospital they have this program here where they'll teach you how the baby the baby and lotion and massage and the new mom will go like yoga classes and arts and crafts and they just really take care of you for an entire month something new they do here instead of having like a mom come over and do it or you know over here in China they the new moms to not really supposed to do much for that first month. So this is a way that I can keep my wife happy kit as well as

I think it's still be good. I think that even though I don't really quite understand it. It's going to be a nice way to make that first month a little bit easier and have some helping hands with nurses and know you're doing stuff right. I guess

that

after that's gonna be pretty tough to give you by yourself again.

Well, we'll cross that bridge. Well today's guess they are long time optometrists in Providence Rhode Island they've got a pretty cool Facebook Live series called Empire Builder but early while they're here is because of their upper cut advantage optometry consulting firm and we haven't had that on the show yet. And I've been looking for one and these two guys did not disappoint whatsoever. And we're going to talk about things that you who's your first hire? And obviously you might need a front desk person answer the phone. We've been a petition, but but what else what's what's some of their first hires that you should do? And why big box store versus private practice or online glasses? places? What is that doing to the profession? If you're complaining about working or complaining about seeing too many patients? what's what's the deal? What's it look for when hiring a consultant ways to increase your revenue and doesn't always mean having to find more and more new patients either. They got a cool little discussion about that way to get kids to see if they need a prescription. And between the two of them. They've got six different kids. So we actually skip the spouse and we talked about how to raise a kid that is exceptional. And, you know, they're so business minded. How do you kind of get your kids to care about that kind of stuff at a younger age or teenager, if that's even possible. And these two guys are just, they're really good at what they're doing. They've got a lot of potential. They've been optometrists for a very long time. And so now they're ready to to to help others because there's just no need to suffer out there.

So you should really find some good information out of this episode. Today. Show Notes a doctor's perspective. NET

slash eight to let's go hashtag behind the curtain

live from China and Rhode Island. We have two amazing doctors on the show. Both graduated from the State University of New York College of optometry, their senior partners at upper cut consulting and there's a dr. john Armando. He has internships and extra training and glaucoma corny or disease and contact lens fitting, and we got Dr. Scott Kalona who did internships in ocular disease and as a big specialty in infants and pediatric care. There are a wealth of knowledge Get ready. Welcome to the show.

Unknown 3:54
Thank you, Justin, thank you for having us.

Justin Trosclair 3:57
Absolutely. Well, what was the catalyst? I know, sometimes we just become successful in what we do. And we're like, all right, we just got to give back. But what made your decided to create uppercut consulting? Where does that name come from to, and what's your specialty in that and the optometry field.

Unknown 4:17
So how we started with the name, we were actually all sitting at a restaurant discussing the concept of the new company. And this is something that we wanted to do for years. But we just never had the time to be honest. We were inundated in our work at our practice seeing patients. And it wasn't until we really started delegating, getting out of patient care that we decided, well, we can do this, we want to help the independent practitioner really get to a different level where we know all of them, can we see a lot of them struggle. And I just think it has to do with some guidance that they really do need. So we sat down to the restaurant, we had a few good steaks, and a bottle of wine came out, and the wine was called uppercut. And we're sitting there and we're just all talking. And we're like, well, what are we going to call the, you know, what are we going to count company. So we looked at the bottle, and we're, like, uppercut, and we're like, that's pretty cool. And it has a lot of different meanings, obviously, that that people can can think of, and, you know, we kind of leave it up to the imagination from there. So that's how we came up with that name.

Unknown 5:36
Yeah.

Justin Trosclair 5:37
Now, some real interesting you mentioned already was you must have been reading some books or hurts from successful people delegating as solo practitioners, we tend to be the marketer, we tend to be higher fire product orders, is that very common optometry, where y'all do all of those things, are you better at hiring someone and getting that out of there?

Unknown 6:00
Well, I'll tell you, we did everything ourselves in the beginning, because we didn't obviously have the revenue to hire and, and we did learn a lot about it. But I almost think it's one of the faults that coming out of school and optometry we're trained to be great Thomas optometrist. optically, medically, we're not trained to run a business though. And that's where we kind of try to put on these different hats. And we put on as many hats as we can, for a number of years, until we're ready to just pass out on the floor. So you know, we've taken the approach where in order to grow your company in your business, we needed to delegate and change our ways of doing things early on, and it helped enhance our patient experience at the same time, because we were able to sit back embrace the delegation with took a long time because it was not easy to give things up in the beginning to to others, right. I mean, it's just, I think, the human nature that we always think we could do something better ourselves, even if we're, we really don't know how to do it, we just think we're going to do it better, right. So we got to get over ourselves a little bit. And we thought about that for a number of years, john and i together and and once we got past that point, we were able to develop the company and get back to the vision that we wanted for our practice and for our patients. And they stare experience coming to see us, you know, so it took a number of years for us to get to that point, though.

Justin Trosclair 7:43
So actually, that forgot about that you don't actually work in the same practice and now have a consulting firm together,

Unknown 7:50
correct? Yeah, we don't, we don't actively have a patient schedule anymore. So, you know, we own the practice, we have meetings with our management team. So we are solely focused actively on uppercut consultant. Okay. So

Justin Trosclair 8:07
this is something I'm curious, because every time I'm going to a private optometrist, they've always had a upfront person who, you know, fits your eyes fits the glasses and kind of controls that area is that one of the best first hires or delegations that you can do in your field, you know,

Unknown 8:26
I think that's the way it's been done in the past. But as our field is evolving, we are finding that you need to get an office manager in the office sooner rather than later. So can go with the front receptionist, you can go with the medical technician, and then an optical person, but then the next higher has to be if it's not, by that point, in our opinion, an office manager to handle the issue. So the doctor could be the doctor. I mean, that's what we're all about, we, we want the doctor to do the things that we went to school for, not be sidetracked with all this other ancillary stuff that comes up constantly, while you're trying to see patients, right. So.

Unknown 9:11
So that's really where we've kind of gone with things and, and we're constantly learning and trying to improve in different ways to enhance that experience. Because it then it gives back to the patients, you know,

Justin Trosclair 9:24
why don't they just don't work in the big box store,

Unknown 9:26
not that one. So

Justin Trosclair 9:30
I'm setting you up with softball

Unknown 9:31
Did you know, so for me, I'm not, I'm, I'm me. So I need for all the vision of what I'm doing. And the big box stores, what they do is they take out the creativity and almost give guidelines for how you're supposed to take care of your patient. So we allow in our framework, our doctors to have individual input into how they take care of their patients, you know, we don't give them this, you have to do a, b, c, d, we give them a structure. But within that structure, we allowed them to take that individual part of what they want to do, and take that to the next level where you cannot do that in the big box setting. And the big box setting is getting financially squeezed because of online competition, and so forth. And now that's getting pushed from the retail side, and they're putting that financial burden more on the doctor is in the doctors have to pay higher leases, for their space, and so forth. So that industry is being strained at this time, due to the online competition of things. Whoops, I have one of those examples. Justin, just recently, we're seeing that some of the Sears obstacles are closing in America, there is a huge number of them closing. So these doctors who are in, you know, corporate optometry that happens worked at these obstacles for years and years, their, their, their, their strings are being pulled by corporate and all of a sudden, they're not going to have a job. And they've been there for quite a long time. So it's, you know, you want to be able to delegate, but you also want to be able to kind of control your own destiny, you know, the same time is the private practices, you know, the online glasses, I mean, that just seems like a lot of people were like, oh, why not? Um, I just pay $50 for a pair glass instead of three or 400 at the private place? Is there like a difference in the quality of glasses that you're getting? Or is it just a pricing? Because you can, because you're a private practice, or what's your thoughts on that. So I can't speak for everyone. But I can say, you know, it's not up pricing, just because you can, there is a different level in the quality of what you're getting speaking in our practice, and our clients practices, you know, so, that is you do, you do get what you pay for in that level of product. So, that is one aspect of it. The other part of it is, is the personal and the customer and client support afterwards. So if you do have issues with things, you have someone that you could go to, that's been taking care of you and is familiar with your ocular health, right. So if you're having an issue, we know what your your health situation of your eyes is behind that, where if you're getting something online, I mean, it happens. And it happens often, where someone has an issue with their glasses, and they come in, and they didn't purchase them through us, but they need help, they need assistance, they need repairs, they need these types of things. So you are paying for that support and education that we do provide. And that's where we set ourselves apart in the experience. And we do try to always have affordable options for the patients that don't have the financial needs to spend, you know, high dollar amounts for, for their glasses. And it's still again, products that, you know, we approve ourselves, because we know they're at a certain tested level of what we're giving out, you know, providing to the patients,

Justin Trosclair 13:15
we're not going to test this, I'm on a couple of pairs of glasses here in China, the wife as well. And I'm telling you that they look pretty for a while. And then the cool part starts to flake, you like what kind of cheap paint put on these glasses. So when I went home, I was like, man, I had these au pairs, the one that we're in right now, they're metal, they never, you know, nothing's ever happened for him. And of course, they're like, three or four times the price. And I was like, let me just get some new lenses. This is, this is the best option. I was like, I can't be walking around with flaking glasses anymore. This is ridiculous.

Unknown 13:52
It is true. You know, I think

Justin Trosclair 13:55
we don't realize that when you buy it.

Unknown 13:57
So

Justin Trosclair 13:58
okay. I want to know, if you're willing to share when we're looking for clients. Oh, man, sometimes you get the doctors that you could tell them anything, they would execute it, they would be your your top stars that this seems like there's always those people and then you've got the I guess the 80% that are kind of like, I just I can't get on my own way. Or I have, you know, there's always an excuse, oh, my towns, different our data. So what are some of the, the struggles that your clients maybe the top two struggles that your clients have, that you're always having to kind of battle

Unknown 14:31
as far as in the beginning, I feel as though when doctors graduate optometry school, you know, in our case, sometimes there's this false perception that it's going to be the easy road right after that, because, hey, I just got that degree, right? Where Actually, it's the complete opposite. And that's when

Unknown 14:59
just by bottom line, you have to work extremely hard. And you have to love to do it. You can't look at it as a negative type of thing where I went to school for years. And now I have to work well, yeah, you know, you said, you gotta work still work.

Justin Trosclair 15:18
They said, I've opened the doors and see 30 patients the first day,

Unknown 15:21
right. So, you know,

Unknown 15:23
in order to see those patients, a lot of it is, is customer service base, but you do have to have marketing component to it. You know, just being involved in the community is extremely important. treating your patients like, you know, your friends and extended family is extremely important. You know, but you, you should never be complaining as a doctor that you're seeing a lot of patients, you should never be complaining that you have to work on Saturday, you should never be complaining that you have to work 70 to 80 hours a week, because you're growing your practice, it's yours, you know, you're working for yourself, one of the lucky few that actually are able to even do something like this. So, you know, we,

Unknown 16:13
we get a lot of flack for sometimes saying that to the doctors, but but it's just the reality. I would also say to add to that, you know, the other thing we get a lot from, from our clients is the aversion to change, right. So they hire us and we meet with them, and, and they want to accomplish goals. You know, we asked them right off the bat, we want to know their three business goals and their three personal goals, because we want to make sure we can help them as a client, right, that our values align, we're very big into that. But, you know, we'll, we'll talk to them about change, and put together a program and a schedule for to help them, you know, attain these goals. And they look at us, and they're like, well, I don't want to change that, or my office manager doesn't want to change. Well, I got news for you, they talk about, you know, how do you ever change anything in your industry, the only way you get to grow things is to change, right? You can't keep doing the same thing. If you do the same thing over and over. We know what they talk about that right, it's insanity. So you need to change things in the office, and you need to embrace that with your staff. And you need to communicate that with your staff. So I'd say the biggest issue that we've been encountering is that I want to do this, I want to accomplish x, but you need to change something to get to it. And there's work again, we can come back to this word work, don't wait, there's work involved in in change, right? So that's why I think as human beings, we shy away from change, because it is going to require time and effort. But it's the only way you get to the next level and can scale your business

Justin Trosclair 17:58
now, I'm curious which thoughts are because if my staff member were to say, I'm not going to do that, is it time to start looking for a new staff member?

Unknown 18:06
Yeah, that's great.

Unknown 18:09
So my biz weekly, there's a, there's a Facebook page that I throw a question out on, and I asked the optometrist, what is the most challenging part of owning your own business? And, and, and Justin, probably about 90% of the answers was staff. Okay, now, so I was like, wow, yeah, that's really interesting. But when you sit back, and you kind of reflect on all of those answers, and if I were in, there's not such a thing. But if there was such a thing of a Facebook page of all staff members, and I asked the same question, what do we know? The answer is going to be, what do we know, we know if it's going to be the doctor, right?

Justin Trosclair 19:00
Dr. Just every five minutes is changing, focused. And he's right.

Unknown 19:05
So it's, it's just really something how, you know, one of the doctors even said, Oh, if I can only clone myself, and then, you know, I could give me like, 15 enemies, I was like, that's the worst thing that you want to do. Right now, you do not want to do that.

Unknown 19:24
So we doctors need to kind of self reflect and, and know that they necessarily aren't managers, unless they, you know, have a degree, maybe in business management. And even at that point in time, sometimes still not the greatest managers. But

Unknown 19:41
so as far as staff goes, doctors either need to really educate themselves on how to manage the staff, because a lot of the times staff needs guidance, and they want guidance they wanted, not everyone is a manager, not everyone wants to be a manager, right? So they, but they do need guidance, they need a set of principles to go by, if, if things are being changed, like you said, every five minutes, you know, we're, we're implementing something, and then all of a sudden, that didn't work once. Now, we change it again, right. And now that didn't work once. And now we change it. I mean, you know, after a while, you have to start to realize that that's not the way

Unknown 20:25
to go,

Justin Trosclair 20:26
No, switching gears a little bit, on the flip side, doctors are calling you that they're considering your services, what are some of the common concerns that they're having, that they're experiencing, to actually want to hire somebody to help them.

Unknown 20:40
So it said that the number one biggest thing that people are concerned about when they call us is that we cost too much everything, everything to them centers around how much is going to cost them. And I think it's a challenge we find in all industries, you know, we work with different fields, medical fields, chiropractors, primary care doctors, also yet this mindset where it's cost, and it's $1 amount, and I have to pay you x, we need to almost look at it differently and say, let's talk about growth. Because if you're going to pay us hundred dollars a month for a service, well, I got news for you, if you see how many more patient what's the growth of it, right? It's about it's about growing the practice in the direction that they want. So and I think this is a society issue, you know, for a number of years, you get out and it's like, you have student loans, you have all these things going on, do I buy a house, where's my rent, and it's all about cost, right? It's cutting it's, it's, you can only cut so much before you start to sacrifice the quality of care and experience for your staff and the culture for yourself staff. So if your staff sees you cutting everywhere to save money, well, I got news for you, eventually, you're going to cut yourself out of business. So you need to outgrow the expenses that keep rising each year. And, and that's really our kind of mindset with, you know, it's almost changing the mindset of let's talk about rope, let's talk about something exciting. We're in a great profession, all of us are really blessed to be able to provide a service and enhance people's quality of life, right? Let's take the the negative bashing of that goes on, on the internet all the time of our profession. And it goes on and pretty much every medical profession we're to learn, right, that it's not good, the future is not good. It's not this, not that it's great. If you want to make it great, you know, if you want to be a great doctor will then hire a great office manager manager and let them manage the office. So you could be the great doctor that you want to be, you know, so that positive aspect of things is really important. We think when we talk to our clients, and just changing that mindset from cost savings and, and growth and enhancing what's going on with their company. So it's definitely a thing we discussed a lot with, you know, prospective clients going forward on a daily basis.

Justin Trosclair 23:30
So I have a question, then you said, you do different doctors, but I'm just kind of focused on doctors, other than maybe getting more exams for contacts, which I think is a little bit of a higher price and selling more glasses or whatever, where is there what's like, one or two ways an opportunity to get to make necessarily make more money, but offer more services that you can get reimbursed for? Is it like putting transition lenses on some of these glasses that they otherwise wouldn't have thought of? Is there what else is out there? How do y'all upsell patients? Yeah,

Unknown 23:59
it's it's actually ethic. Right? Right.

Justin Trosclair 24:03
Obviously, obviously, we're talking ethical guys come on, we know we that's just understood, we're not talking about be building crazy thing

Unknown 24:09
is probably as ethical as it gets. Because it's not a selling thing. It's we have found over time that a lot of the growth is in the medical portion of, you know, of the business where patients really have issues with say, for instance, dry eyes right now, that is a huge topic, especially with everyone being on their computers and iPhones. And, you know, a little thing that I tell a lot of my friends, and they never even think of this, it's when you're on a phone and you're on a computer, you don't blink as much because you're staring, right. So you're not naturally blinking like you would be just walking around, right? You're staring at content these things over time can cause severe drought II. And then it's also a natural thing over time, just with aging, that you're it doesn't make enough oil. So your tears are made of oil, and water and mucus mixture. So these are areas that especially a lot of older women experience. And, you know, as doctors previously were just like, Well, here's it, here's a, you know, a bottle of artificial tears for you and try that. And good luck. But now

Unknown 25:33
they they're, there is a ton of technology out there. Now we're we're doctors are creating actual dry eye spas, believe it or not. Now, that may get a little Yeah, that may get a little crazy. But people are seeing an extraordinary results from these things where it actually changes their life because it's an ongoing, gritty, Sandy feeling that they feel every single day. And it's miserable, right? So from from the medical side, there are a lot of things, you know, we can do, I think, much more so than even in the optical area.

Justin Trosclair 26:17
That's why you know, I guess it's one of those if you didn't actually use an approved I think had an eye doctor on one time. And she had recommended an appropriate I drop if you had like, dry and he is I don't remember it was called now. But it's like you don't even know how bad it is. until you actually probably haven't corrected

you like, Oh my gosh, that's what my eyes are supposed to feel like.

I can't believe right.

Unknown 26:38
Like, we haven't gone to the doctor for 10 years. And you get a new pair of glasses. And you're like, Whoa, I could actually see something

Justin Trosclair 26:49
that's awesome. which one has the pediatric specials? That would be me wouldn't when you have a little kid, maybe under 503, what's one way to determine if they need glasses.

Unknown 27:00
So it's one of the areas where the technology is not there yet to to really rely on it to determine if a child needs glasses or not. We use a it's kind of a staple in optometry. And historically a technique where we shine a light in their eyes. And we read how it reflects off their eye. And that's how we determine what their prescription is objectively because obviously, we can't sit there with a two year old. I don't know, there's some pretty advanced two year olds out there right now. But you know, we can't sit there and ask them, you know, what are the letters? Do you see it better or worse? One or two and all those

Justin Trosclair 27:40
things? Yeah.

Unknown 27:43
So really, it's a it's a technique we learned in school, it's called retinas could be, and it's something where we actually include in our interviews for doctors that we're hiring to find out if they can handle that skill. Because we do believe it's important determining, determining a child needs for need for glasses at such a young age, you know, so I'm sure the technology like everything else will continue to advance and improved to the point of where it will help us more in the probably the near future. But that's how we really handle that at this point. It's really enjoyable. I love seeing and taking care of small children, even before I was a father. So you could you could get it,

Justin Trosclair 28:28
I expected you to say you put their face in those little machines,

Unknown 28:32
the

Justin Trosclair 28:32
machines you guys have pretty much almost does everything you need. Yeah,

Unknown 28:35
they don't do a great job at all with with kids, believe it or not, they're very, very inaccurate with children, especially with children, not not with adults. But with young children. Young children tend to do something called the comedy which when they look up close their prescription can completely shift. So I've had people that that you know, parents that have come in with children and they have these you know, really stick prescription and and I do that written asked up that, you know, Scott was talking about and none of it's there. And I'm like, whoa. So I know that they went somewhere that relied on that machine for this because it usually is a particular type of prescription that that if that will come out on those machines. And this was like, Hallmark for that

Unknown 29:30
and do your job. Yeah, so it's, it's interesting, because just doing that little simple old school tests can be extremely accurate. Believe it or not, we can we can get it on the money sometimes with, you know, with a lot of these very young children says, It's pretty cool. That is cool. That was a selfish question. My wife and I both wear glasses. I just know my kid. At some point. I'm going to need it. I just thought that it was a little baby. as cute as they are with those little rap

Justin Trosclair 29:57
addresses. I'm like,

get to like fourth grade.

Unknown 30:04
Okay,

Justin Trosclair 30:05
I'm into this marketing business. I love it. It's fun.

Until like, Facebook shut you down for

hosting

the like. Oh, dang it. I forgot to you know, there's all these Anyway,

we'll go into the story.

chiropractors dentist, I'm guessing it doctors will actually definitely you guys. They all have the least the big box stores, get an exam or buy a pair of glasses, your exams free. Okay. There's gotta be better ways. Then give them out the form. What are a tactic? There are two that we could do as marketing for marketing our practices without just doing a 1999 exam or whatever. This the equivalent and your professions.

Unknown 30:45
Yeah, you know,

Unknown 30:46
we started we started I'm going to call it old school, and then it still works the best. So we made up information flyers. And we visited everybody we possibly could physically we showed up at the school nurses, we showed up at the YMCA, Boys and Girls Clubs. We went there and talked about ourselves, right? I know, that's, it's kind of some people call it You shouldn't say that, you know, you shouldn't do that. It's kind of like selling yourself. Well, yes, you know what I'm selling myself. Because I know we can provide a service to who they take care of. So that networking by showing up smiling, telling them what we could do and provide services for them is the way we began growing our small practice when we started, you know, we only had seven employees at the time when we started. And we now have 55, so old school, shaking hands, networking, providing information to them, is how we educated all the people around us. And that's how we initially grew our company from the seven to where we are now. And we still do that today,

Justin Trosclair 32:04
believe it or not, even medical doctor, and they may join a new big hospital, the new guy, they'll take him around, the HR will take them around to meet all the other doctors to them know, like, Hey, this is what we services this with the offering and they have everything built in. So they don't really have to go and hustle as bad as we do, you know, at the schools, but that works in corporate just say the same thing. Like, you gotta go go visit all the businesses go shake hands, pass out cards, care about the other person. So

Unknown 32:34
that's real good. I like that. It's about the value, you know, and, you know, the free exam kind of adds that you talked about it, what value do you put on yourself and your staff and the experience, you might charge $500 for an eye exam or an adjustment. But if you can truly serve the patient and explained that, that 500 they're going to get way more than that free exam, right? It's about the value in the experience that you're providing, not the dollar amount of things, you know, so I think that's really what we've done over the years. And our staff. I mean, our staff has done a tremendous job, because we believe our staff is actually more important than us as the doctors, which I know, I probably just really upset some people that I just said that, but

Justin Trosclair 33:27
well,

Unknown 33:28
they spend more time with the patient's face to face. Yeah, then we do.

Justin Trosclair 33:33
Yeah, you know, they answer the phone, it's

Unknown 33:35
about educating, you know, the patients on the benefits that they're getting. So the people that give the free eye exams, there is always going to be a sector of people that only want the cheapest thing. Now, neither you nor I are going to change that mindset, usually. But what we have to realize is, is there is a huge percentage of people that are not like that they they want, you know, the true I care, the quality, I care, the quality pair of glasses, it's sometimes not who you think just because certain people may not be in the upper class part of society doesn't necessarily mean they won't pay a lot of money to get their eyes examined. Some there are some patients that come in, and my goodness, I wish I was so concerned about my eyes as they were about some of the things that they would explain to me. They're, they're like, well, I don't care about anything else. All I care about her as my eyes, you know. So you're going to have that, that spectrum of people that go from one end to the other

Justin Trosclair 34:50
and it's sometimes I forget that, you know, optometrists, they're not an optician, they're not just here's your prescription you actually are, we could see, oh, you have hypertension, Oh, you've got some serious stuff going on in your eye. And that is why we have to do the exam because you may not even know about it until you have an issue, then you'd be like, Oh, no. What do I go? Who's the best? Who's the best guy? Right?

Unknown 35:13
And you want to catch those things early? Not five years too late because you were being cheated. We can medically treat glaucoma now, and, and it well, and 49 of the 50 states me I know we've been able to treat glaucoma and, you know, we co manage obviously, cataracts and in some states, they could do LASIK surgery, laser surgery. optometry can really yeah, so it's, you know, it's expanding quite a bit in the the ophthalmologists are becoming really technically just the surgeons most of the time, then they bring them back to us. But a lot of the medically treated stuff, we deal with all of that, so they don't want to even be bothered with that. Now, the ophthalmologists they just want you to surgeries and, and hand them back off. So

Justin Trosclair 36:04
that sounds like this, right?

Who have been some of your influential guys, whether that's books, your own mentors, the own your own coaches that you've hired in the past that shaped you guys the most

Unknown 36:18
for myself, and I know for Scott also, we are big sports guys, the besides my father, which, you know, which I personally he showed me how to work hard and how to kind of not talk but just do you know, so from that aspect, I just watched him a lot. And he didn't have to say too much to me. But the amount of work that he just put in throughout his life I really admired and it made me realize that that's what I had to do. From a humbling standpoint, I would say, my foot coach and American football,

Unknown 37:05
soccer, like you're not here for college here, just being involved part of a team, he brought me personally, all the way down to as low as you can possibly go,

Unknown 37:21
probably mentally and physically. And then at the same point, brought me up as high and beyond my potential, what I really expected that I could do myself, a great coach sees what you can do more so than you can, yourself and that that's exactly what he was, he was extremely influential in my life. It's one of the reasons why I feel that when times are tough, I'm mentally strong, to be able to get through practically anything, there's not not much that phases be at this point in my life. But

Unknown 38:02
I would say for me, you know, I grew up in New York City. So my father, you know, worked on Wall Street, and I was surrounded by numbers every day. And it's, it's basically led me to what my role is now owning, you know, multiple businesses and consulting finance numbers, it gets me excited to help people understand their numbers, and to grow their numbers. So growing up there, and the energy in New York City that you kind of, you really got, you really got to step up your game, if you want to be successful there, the competition is, is pretty fierce, you know, and even though I haven't lived there for years now, and moved out, it's still something that is a driving force. And, you know, one of my first financial advisors was a key mentor of mine, and understanding money investment and, and helped us a great deal in the beginning. And unfortunately, he did, you know, he, he passed away from cancer A number of years ago, but he was a great mentor for me in growing what we're doing today. And I just tried to always pass that on to we're working with, and especially as I raise, you know, Terry and I raise our two children, you know, that's really what's most important to me, you know, at this point. So,

Justin Trosclair 39:28
I wanted to ask one question, before we switch to the little more personal side of the interview about the kids and those types of things. Usually, there's more than just one consulting company out there for doctors in a specialty. And then there's always some that are, you're just like, please just stay away from, we're not going to mention names. But is there a way to spot a company that we should avoid it's kind of fly by night, or just going to take your money and run,

Unknown 39:52
I would say, the

Justin Trosclair 39:55
well, we,

Unknown 40:00
whether there's this quote, right, that we were talking about a few days ago, it's it, I'll just kind of paraphrase it, but kind of says, beware of the person who criticizes from the stands. But as never been on the field,

Justin Trosclair 40:16
who, yeah,

Unknown 40:18
there are people who are consultants that have really not had the experience, and, you know, nothing against younger people who aspire to do that. Nothing against, you know, really anyone but myself, I want to, I want to consult with people who have already been where I want to be, that that's who I want to be with, there are tons of opinions out there, the ones that are really good, are the ones that have actually done it. And, you know, went through that, you know, went through the fire per se, you know, to have all those experiences, the good and the bad, there really is nothing like that. And, you know, unfortunately, it takes years and years to build that, you know, reading it in a book is sometimes maybe, you know, books are great. I personally hate to read. So, I do audio, I do audio books all the time,

Unknown 41:26
right. So I

Unknown 41:29
not really

Unknown 41:32
all right down to do that. But, uh, you know, those things are great tools. But it really does not compare to, to the real experience of being in it all the way in it, I could tell you that if there's one thing that I know about Scott of myself, is that we were in it, we still are in it. But we really couldn't, couldn't have been more deep into what we you know, what we consult on. So, yeah, yeah, and I would say some of them out there are very cookie cutter in their approach. And we, you know,

Unknown 42:07
we believe that there's a uniqueness to the individuals practice, not the problems because the problems, everybody thinks their problems only apply to them. But they could think that if they want for now, we try to take a PR and we do take a personal approach and get to know the owners and guide their plan towards their goals. We don't just send them okay, chapter one is this, let's work on this chapter two, we have, we have areas we work on, but we tailor it towards their goals and their business and their situation, because we have clients that have multiple locations and have, you know, 5060 employees. And then we have clients that have three employees. So we can't just tell them the same information because it's going to be perceived very differently and utilized, if any, by them. There's, there's ones out there that they revenue share with you. So they're like, okay, we're going to get part of your growth. Well, I got two partners. One is john, and one is my wife, I don't need any more partners than that, really, at this point, you know, like, I just believe that we and good companies will charge you a fee for service. And we charge a fee on a monthly basis to make it spread out over the year, they can pay us for dearly if they want, that'd be great. But that lets them know is we're providing this service for you, this is the fee everything you grow because you're putting in the effort to change things and grow the business, right, we're just coaching you, that's all yours, I shouldn't be getting a percentage of your growth on top of it, you know, so that's just our opinion on you know, how to find and why we put together this this kind of personal part of our coaching and it's, it's done by our team. It's not just john and I, we do have a team that helps us accomplish that. But practices

Justin Trosclair 44:06
Well, I can tell you, Adam, buddy, that signed a contract and its profit share. I was like, you were asking my opinion about this company. And I told you other companies to try. I told you avoid profit splitting. Are you kidding me?

You're going to give whatever percentage I don't care what the percentages for the next four years or whatever, like, That's crazy. I like that. You're Phoebe. You fee when I saw your feet, your feet are on the on the web page. I like. Well, that's pretty straight for I didn't realize they were monthly. I was like, at that point. I didn't know. But that's still not bad. I mean, it's not, you know, you got to like, think about it for a second. But like, which said, the growth that you're going to experience it should pay for itself. But

Unknown 44:47
that's the idea. The average patient for optometrists does about $300 in revenue, okay, so if they sign up to meet up, I mean, if they sign on with our thousand dollar a month, it's, it's basically a little bit more than three patients. Well, if we can't help you, and you implement change to see three more patients a month, then we should not be in business. I mean, you know, but it does take for them to listen and, and plot you know, and implement some of the, the changes to accomplish that. But how about seeing one or two more a day, and there's 20 to 25 work days, depending on how many days your office is open. You know, that's, that's really what we're going after. So,

Justin Trosclair 45:32
yeah, for sure. Well, let's switch gears just a little bit. Actually, it's a lot we're going to go straight to personal I love these questions. Both have kids. Sounds like you got to to each

Unknown 45:43
hang out for

Justin Trosclair 45:46
you before I got to so okay. Justin.

Okay.

normally ask about like the spouse but now I'm kind of kicked your father's y'all. Y'all sound like you have a lot of businesses involved. That's time consuming. Sometimes I'll travel I'm sure how to be attentive and good fathers to your children to where, you know, in 20 years, you won't look back and say, Oh, I miss their childhood. That's a bad situation. I'd say

Unknown 46:17
for me. Well, one thing is having a great wife. And I'm not just saying this, because she's going to hear this and I'm going to get points. She, you know, she really supports what we do together, whether it's john and i, in our businesses together and, and us as husband and wife and trying to teach our children to be more successful, because the world is not getting easier for the future generations, it's becoming more and more challenging to be successful, you know, so I want them to be able to look at what we do. And I do and set an example for them to be successful. So it's, it's a challenging thing, you know, you're fighting, we're trying to teach them to be exceptional and exceptional does not mean popular. And I'd say that that's the biggest challenge, I think, in parenting. But I actually spend, I feel more quality time with my kids now than I did 15 years ago. A lot of it has to do with scheduling. And I know people are going to say, you meet your scheduled time to be with your family. Yes, I schedule time with my family. And that time I am with them. I am not answering the phone. I'm not paying attention to anything else that's going on. Because, you know, my daughter is going to be 13 after about 30 minutes. She doesn't want to be with me any more than that in sections right now. Right? She wants to be with her friends and riding bikes into town and doing things and so forth. So

Unknown 47:54
I'm more about the quality on you know, time and focus time more than just being available, you know, all Saturday and Sunday, you know, that I'm not a I don't do that. Me personally, right.

Justin Trosclair 48:08
Especially on her daughter's it's it's thing just talk to you and Vince it almost like a patient. You can let them talk after about 90 seconds. Don't stop. It might feel like an eternity to you. But like don't eventually it just quit even along with it personally talks about,

Unknown 48:28
you gotta come to our office

Unknown 48:32
hours.

Justin Trosclair 48:39
I'm gonna need you to lay down

your back.

Unknown 48:43
Yeah, I mean, for myself, quality of time is extremely important. Because I'm on my second marriage. Now, I see my, I have a a two year old

Unknown 48:57
with my second marriage than my first marriage. I have three older children, so I don't get to see them every single day. So when I do see them, the time is precious. For me, you know, my three oldest, I have a 17 year old girl, I have 15 year old boy and a 14 year old boy. So my 17 year old she, she's going to be a senior this year. And then also a lot of college stuff going on with her. She's, you know, they're all wonderful kids. But this point you, you raise them to try to be wonderful kids. And then it gets to the point where, okay, now they're, they're great kids most of the time, but I need to raise them my older ones. Now to be great adults. You know, when when I grew up, I grew up in a lower middle class family. And, you know, there was a lot of motivation just naturally, because it besides love, my family didn't have too much else, you don't need that much else. So, so my children need to understand that. But they also need to understand that, you know, they didn't grow up in that type of an environment. They, you know, they, my children grew up in a nice house and the nice car and, you know, how do you motivate your children in other ways, for me, a lot of the motivation was trying to get, you know, better material things, whether it be a house or a car when I was a young kid, you know, that was, that was just what it was. Because all of my family didn't have that. So now, it's more creative. You need to be creative on how to, you know, motivate your children, if you already have those things. And a lot of it has to do with just giving back to others and doing the things you you love in general, realizing that family, no matter what is the most important thing and, and, you know, that whole work life balance thing, I personally I can't stand that phrase. But, you know, I nobody, I mean, I feel as though it you know, life is life and work as a part of it. One shouldn't be thought of as the anti of the other, right, like works would be thought about the anti, you know, of living? Yeah, yeah, change your job, you want to be able to do all of that together. So, we just try to instill that in our children and, and put in a really good worth, work ethic and respect are the two big things for me, you know,

Justin Trosclair 51:38
I could probably say it, especially for y'all to, you've got this business sense, and you want to pass it on to your kids. And that's something I'm thinking about. I'm like, okay, you know, sometimes you don't have to go to college. Like, if you're really good at marketing, you can have a lot of money doing Facebook ads, or, you know, buying and selling real estate. There's so many ways you can make money in America, you don't have to be a doctor and a lawyer eyes days, but you know, when they're 15, you're kind of a dummy. You're the parent, you know,

whatever you say, doesn't writer and I'm just like, Well, wait, how do I, you know, because I got a cousin that's in college. And she's like, man, there's so many things I want to talk to her about. But I don't really think she can,

Unknown 52:16
you know what, you're right. I agree with that. And because we all went through that and

Unknown 52:23
get it a little earlier. And some people get it a little later. And some people never get it. But, you know, the, that's the thing where you're there to be the guide. You know, I know, there's certain things that I'm there for, as a parent, I don't need you know, I love being friends with my children. But I don't need to be their best friend. I don't need you know, to be even a good friend, I need to make sure that they're guiding them to make the right decisions and how easy it is to make a wrong decision. You know, so it's more of just that guidance. And, and because they don't know what they don't know. I know there. There's that mindset out there. And where they talk about, well, don't push your kids into doing this. Don't push your kids into that. Well, you know what, you got to push your kids, you got to push your kids into doing certain things, or they'll do nothing. My the playing video games all day, just lazy at 1342. I've been going through that stage, especially with the boys. I mean, I got to be on them all the time. If you just allow them to just think up things and do their own thing. They don't know anything. How do you expect that I don't agree with that. That type of mindset at all. I mean, I really feel as though you know, you don't want to negatively force them into a position but you just have to be the guide. And if they're straying down the wrong road, you got to just, you know, knock them back in place,

Unknown 53:52
not physically

Justin Trosclair 53:53
know,

given, given one opportunities to try different things. You know why I saw the news, some kids, you know, they got to be teenage boys pushed over some balance the rock that was there for millennia, and they pushed it over a cliff, it fail, and it shattered and someone that's been there for, like I said, like 345, 600 years is now gone, because some kids were born. I was like, I hope they find them. Yeah, yeah, a split second. Everyone was I can

do it

Unknown 54:23
exactly right. That that's, that can happen in any scenario, right? So that's why it's scary.

Justin Trosclair 54:29
Yeah, do some crack.

Unknown 54:29
That's right.

Justin Trosclair 54:33
Anyway, last question. You're ready for this? Oprah? All right. We got phones. There's so many fun apps out there. And I'm not talking Facebook, I'm talking. They could be business or whatever you like, what do you like, as far as apps go, and any books that you secretly love, and the ones that you would definitely recommend for others

are a podcast.

Unknown 54:54
So I would say for me, I'm a big follower of grant called Jones podcasts. And I know historically, people are like, well, that has nothing to do with your industry. But I believe it does. You know, it's a, you know, he talks about, you know, his background and his trade is selling and selling in our industry is a, you know, obviously, a word that people don't like, but you need to be able to network and sell yourself and be confident in your own ability. And if you cannot do that, well, then how do you expect someone else to come to your office for your services, I do have a real estate investment company. And that's how my relationship with him started a few years ago, actually, I've learned a great deal from his podcasts on real estate investing and money. And he gives a very different viewpoint, and it actually has aligns with a number of my values, not financially, but not all of them. So that's a great thing. And one of his books that I've read is sell or be sold is the one of my favorites. And, and it really tells you that if you're not going to do it yourself, Well, someone else is going to do it and you're going to be left out, right. It's kind of, I think, an important part of what I tried to develop for myself and for our company together in teaching and coaching our clients, you know, that they can really do these things and accomplish that. And then if they don't, well, someone else is going to do it, and then they're going to be left out

Unknown 56:38
for me. I love my Starbucks app.

Justin Trosclair 56:45
Come on, pick a better coffee.

Unknown 56:49
But as far as books go, there's a book by Ray Dalio. It's Da Li Oh, it's called principles life and work.

Unknown 57:01
That is an incredible book. He He's a huge hedge fund manager. But the way that he put together his his businesses just mind blowing, I don't want to even discuss any of it because it's just so good. And I really I'm a huge advocate of this guy. He's pretty incredible. He talks about, you know, the basis is just sort of really trying to find what's true and in a business and how to do that. But really, you know, unbelievable as

Justin Trosclair 57:37
Tony Robbins interviewed that guy for his book that money but yeah,

Unknown 57:41
did Yes. Yeah, it was really good. Yeah, he's pretty phenomenal. He actually even does like animated things on YouTube to make it easy to understand how the economy works and cycles. So so the up and down cycles of the economy, they're brilliant. They're really, they're brilliant. So so that would be, you know, my two cents. They're

Justin Trosclair 58:05
very good. Well, how can people find you guys?

Unknown 58:09
Well, easiest way seems to be social media that everybody's finding us now on on Facebook, under uppercut consulting, our website is also upper cut advantage. com. But whether through social media, direct messenger, I mean, our team is pretty good and ourselves that being found, it seems these days. I mean, the social media aspect of things is really, you know, I'm going to tell you for years, I never really embraced it. And I guess that's the old school and me protect, you know, protect and not let anybody know, kind of what we're doing. But I guess with probably about two years ago, we started really just doing some answering questions and started happening where they were just put on social media. And it's kind of just gotten a mind of its own and kept going at this point. So it's been a great way to reach people. And we've met so many great people that way through collaboration and gotten all of our content is really questions from people that follow us. So it's been it's really been really enlightening to be able to help and answer people's questioning through our Facebook and our website. There are two best ways on the website, there's that thing called the telephone number, you know,

Unknown 59:23
so there's the telephones you can give us a call, you know, we will absolutely speak to you on the phone,

Justin Trosclair 59:32
hey, what the Empire Builder is that your Facebook Live series that you do for the other really great intro, and each so Empire

Unknown 59:39
Builder is an episode that I started a year and a half ago on Facebook, and just talking about topics and it's kind of just kind of kept going with it. And it's been really successful. And I get a lot of not just medical professionals, but it's people looking to start up their own businesses. And because a lot of the principles are very similar on what we do, you know, helping set up finance and whether it's corporate documents and things in place. And, you know, in setting up any type of business, networking, marketing, how to grow your top line, they are very common themes that are outside of medical also and optometry. So we've it's been a really rewarding experience. So that's how the Empire Builder is kind of taken its own name on apparently at this point.

Justin Trosclair 1:00:32
Well, if you think about it, too, as doctors typically we're supposed to have the discretionary income where you can have secondary businesses are real estate Empire, you know, couple of restaurants or whatever it is that you want to do. Like, we're in a position where we should be able to afford this types of things and not just have to do the main job.

Unknown 1:00:51
Yeah, and it makes it much easier. I mean, that we have this luxury of being able to take discretionary funds invested so that we can get other flows of income because you really do need multiple flows of income as retirement age comes and so forth. And with all the debt that's going on in the states here, you need to protect yourself. And the best way to do that is to have multiple sources of income. And you know, I'm a believer in mailbox money, I do a lot of real estate and john and i have done real estate together for a number of years. And and it doesn't have to be real estate but like you said, you do need different flows because when the economy goes up and down, well, one flow might go down, but if the other ones still consistent, it doesn't affect what you're trying to do and your quality of life, you know,

Justin Trosclair 1:01:41
yeah, very true. All right. Dr. Scott, dr. john, thank you so much for being on the show and I'm definitely hoping that you will get some clicks from this podcast

Unknown 1:01:52
thank you Jessica. Really appreciate it. Yeah thanks for having us on

Justin Trosclair 1:01:57
Did you know I am offering a copy in one on one online class you know I've been in China for a while I've got a class set up with some TCM docs who do cupping will show you the glass kind and the suction kind you can find more information at a doctor's perspective. NET slash cupping. Right now we have a pre sale price. So you're going to save a good chunk of cash. By signing up early just put your email You'll get notified when the class goes live. Also, as always, the no needle acupuncture book you get four chapters anxiety, low back insomnia and headaches, got pictures, how to find the points and of course all with no needles just go to a doctor's perspective net slash in a protocol as in needless acupuncture, we have great results the other day from lady who couldn't do a lunch because their knee pain now knee pain is not an issue so excited to hear that also the first book today's choices tomorrow's health a lot of people are looking for a magic this saying that this is saying hey look, if you can do small things daily, you'll see results and I'll give you the blueprints that I use to create an exercise routine part of your routine get my nutrition in order and actually get your finances in order to because that's a big stress in life and of course talks about chiropractic so hope you check that out on the website under the Resources tab. These are my affiliate links that helps out support the show blueberry hosting set for said they've got the power bands and the really really resistant really good to stretch those joints mentor box in get subscription to watch the author talk about the book so that you don't have to spend the time reading it also comes with our books and things like that. It's really quite cool primal health and nutrition. You can save 10% by going through my link using the code primal doc it's bone broth Here's to the autoimmune protocols and the specific carbohydrate diet great free non GMO, no sugar dairy free all those types of cool things as well as Click Funnels if you sign up to that or pick up a book from him do my links helps out a little bit and then of course everybody's favorite Amazon you can sign up for different things like prime fresh our music through our links. And of course in the the show notes. We have books mentioned a few follow the link through my site

that'll help out as well.

Well that is it. Go on ahead and leave us a five star review. Thanks so much for listening. And we'll see you next week.

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About the Author
Dr. Justin Trosclair, D.C., an expert in Chiropractic Care, has been focusing on back and neck pain relief for over 12 years and has delivered treatment to more than 6000 patients. With advanced training in treating disc derangement conditions, you can count on him to keep up to date with the latest research in physical medicine for spinal pain. He has 5 years of hospital experience in China, is currently working in Germany, and had a private practice in Colorado for 6 years. Dr. Trosclair hosts a doctor to doctor interview podcast called ‘A Doctor’s Perspective‘ with over 220 episodes. During his free time he wrote 3 books. Today’s Choices Tomorrow’s Health (rebooting health in 4 categories), a Do-It- Yourself acupressure book for 40 common conditions called Needle-less Acupuncture, and a step by step guide to look like a local for Chinese dinner culture called Chinese Business Dinner Culture. If you have kids, you may be interested in his 6 series tri-lingual animal coloring book series (english, spanish and chinese).