E 71 Scientific Exploration of How Acupuncture Works, Olivier Roy Montreal Acupuncturist

a doctors perspective shownotes e71 olivier roy acupuncture

Olivier Roy Acupuncturist talks to Dr Trosclair on A Doctors Perspective Podcast

Electrical pathways, nerve endings, functional connectivity in the brain and more is discussed with Olivier Roy, Acupuncturist. Find out how he uses laser acupuncture in the clinic, what else can be treated besides pain and how does he make his marriage great when they also work together.

Starting at age 21 Olivier Roy from Montreal Canada was encouraged to help people and he began to pursue counseling then massage therapy, yoga, reiki and then discovered Acupuncture. Now he has been practicing 11 years strictly Acupuncture (specializes in Japanese abdomen style, Dahara), 15 years total in the health care field and tends to integrate Cold Laser and Acupressure in his practice as well to stimulate acupuncture points.

How does he use laser and infrared for acupressure? Cold Laser acupuncture may be the future for home use and stimulate the acupuncture points as an acupressure treatment, but for now the units are not affordable enough for home use.

Whether its consistent results or evidence based outcomes, learn what acupuncture can be used for besides the #1 use PAIN… 50 conditions have efficacy.

Scientifically… How does acupuncture work? He discusses the electrical pathways in our interstitium tissues and how stimulating acupuncture points changes the functional connectivity in the brain, shown by functional MRI . Yes, its not all Qi and stagnant energy… we get real answers. In fact, we know more about why/how acupuncture works more so than most medicine. Most medicine we can measure results but the real Real reason why is unknown.

A lot of acupuncture points are on nerve endings but surprisingly a common thread to a bunch of points are on spots of the skin with a lower electrical resistance. Roy also discusses a recent study that discusses long term 12 month chronic pain relief with acupuncture.

Olivier discusses some of the flaws with acupuncture research, hint could it be they don’t stimulate enough points? Tells a great story about Stomach 36. Also a 2016 study that showed acute pain treated with acupuncture was more effective than IV morphine.

At the end of the episode, just when you think it’s over, he talks about his passion for pediatric acupuncture and how Lung 6 saved a kid from a peanut allergy reaction. He hopes to see a pediatric acute ER department set up with acupuncture.

In Canada (he lives in Montreal) when does the government cover it and not.

One tip to avoid burnout, and no it is not collect more money for your services.

What’s the “sweet spot” of treatment sessions to get the best results and frequency? Around minute 32-34.

He works with his wife (how do you do that), so listen to his plan to not only stay connected without talking about work all the time but also how to get alone time as well as how to manage that typical boss- employee dynamic.

Books: Kate Raworth Donut Economics discuss the growth we see and expect cannot go up forever and the inevitable plateau that will happen.

Laclinique.net he is indexed well on google too. Instagram and Facebook: Cliniqueshanti

Show notes can be found at www.adoctorsperspective.net/71 here you can also find links to things mentioned and a transcript of the interview.

Full Transcript of the Interview (probably has some grammatical errors). Just Click to expand

Justin Trosclair 0:02
Episode 71 scientific exploration of how acupuncture works I'm your host Dr. Justin trust Claire and today we're Olivier acupuncturist perspective

join 2017 podcast Awards Nominated host Dr. Justin trust where as he gets a rare to see him look at the specialties all types of doctors and guess plus marketing Travel Tips struggles, goals and relationship advice. Let's hear a doctor's perspective.

Well I hope everybody enjoyed our Facebook video ads marketing series that just ended Of course, we're going to cover more of that in future episodes. In fact, we'll have one in a couple of weeks with an optometry group in the United Kingdom but today we hear from a Montreal acupuncturist. Olivier raw he's going to discuss electrical pathways that acupuncture works on and we talk about acupuncture points we try to find out is it nerve endings is is it random years of practice where people found them? Or is there some kind of scientific reasoning for these acupuncture points or it's about like the functional connectivity in the brain and the pathways it goes on how it can help pain but then there's like at least 50 other things that you can use acupuncture for laser in the clinic to help with acupressure style and why would you use that instead of just needles all the time I tell you it was it's a good episode if you'd like to know a little deeper about how it works versus ci and stagnant energy and things like that if that's not your style then you're gonna like this episode because we're not going to talk about that we try to talk about the science what is going on so come hang out with us the doctor's perspective net slash seven one for the show notes let's go hashtag behind the curtain

live from China in Montreal we got a great guests a Canadian guests who can speak more than one language. He's an acupuncturist and I'm so excited to have him on the show Olivier.

Unknown 2:03
Why

Justin Trosclair 2:05
Why call them Roy he will not yell at me but it's Olivier will just go with that

Unknown 2:10
again is fine,

Justin Trosclair 2:11
man, thank you so much for being on the show. Thanks. Well, I like like a joke before I spent many years learning French but didn't really get to use it. So we're going to do an English interview. And I'm sure that'll make everybody happy. Yeah, sure. Well, I like to begin, there's a lot of things you could do in life, especially when it comes to like alternative medicine and rural medicine. So how did you pick acupuncture of all things available,

Unknown 2:36
or basically this pad starts from the ideas around the 21 when I was called to basically do some counseling work I wanted to be able to help people toward will make a difference basically. And I was sort of getting out of that disillusions for it's following the teenage Hanks that the time and I I felt like the world needed like to come out of this jaded outlook that Western society was perpetuating, basically. And my mother sort of pushed me in that direction she brought she brought me at some point in their weekend with you where we did some right, the initiation right and at that point,

Unknown 3:22
the manual therapies and better people basically made sense for me. So I started like a training basically a massage therapy at that point I focused on traditional approaches like traditional Thai massage

Unknown 3:38
yoga sutra, and after that I sort of steered in a more precise direction towards the traditional Chinese medicine, acupuncture Rebeck okay.

Justin Trosclair 3:50
Yeah, sorry about that. So you've been in the, in the field for almost 15 years,

Unknown 3:54
you said and practicing precisely acupuncture for 11 years. And after shortly after the my basic training I decided to to focus on traditional Japanese acupuncture so that basically revolves around the Hara, like the patient of the applicant, diagnosis through the abdomen, and treatment to the abdomen. And for you few few years ago, I added laser acupuncture to my field of practice. And I've always used also since the beginning, since I've been practicing massage therapy, acupressure as well, that's one of the main tools I also give to the patients. So I can work at home between the treatments, they can work on different points without

Justin Trosclair 4:42
when you're saying like, like cold laser, or is that something that the patients can do at home, or it's just a unit that you've purchased, actually a

Unknown 4:49
unit that I used in the clinic that it's not I know some some of those units say yet, it's, it's probably the future laser that people will be doing. And by themselves, you know, those those lasers will become cheaper and cheaper with diamond people be built,

Unknown 5:06
because it's, it's such a no nonsense approach is basically you just, you have to know where the point is, and you can stimulate it. So it's, it's, you don't need like, a specific training like acupuncture, where you would be risking injury with a needle, basically, because the laser, the only thing you you ask the nose, don't put in your eyes, basically, right,

Justin Trosclair 5:32
the one that I have, it has a, an aperture that you can screw on it. And then it takes it from like, you know, to a tip to where it's probably the size of, not necessarily ballpoint pen, but definitely to where it's like, takes all that energy and concentrated so it's kind of like very endpoint dosages that the kind that you use, or is it more of the wide opening

Unknown 5:54
he has one is it like a surface array where I would like work on joints and like larger surface areas. And then like that one is that is not actually like specific laser per se. So then diodes and let some household items that will in the data whole area. And then I'll do the actual laser probe to get the actual precise dose of full time you want to administer. And I use two different ways my side of the red way languages associated with the one that we use to, quote unquote, replace the acupuncture needles because you can actually do complex points with that one, you can do a regular points with that one. And for more the local treatments. The goal, for example, on the spine or to the muscle are we use the infrared and both of those red and infrared. They're actually like pinpoint probes the world like they're focused on one point at a time.

Justin Trosclair 6:55
That's great. When we're talking acupuncture, we're talking, you know, you've already mentioned spine and kind of back pain and things you showed your your point to your shoulder a second ago, what are some of that when we're talking to like, I want something that's going to show research, I want to know that if I try acupuncture, I'm not just going to throw my money away, what what have you found to be either evidence based, or things you see in the clinic all day long, that just responds and you're very confident in tree.

Unknown 7:22
Well, basically, what I'm seeing in the clinic in majority is pain, you know, whether it be physical pain or emotional pain. So like, as to maintain people go to a concert before and it's a good idea, because it's one of the things that's been most of the, for the National advocacy of acupuncture, there was a really good the literature review were published last year by the Australian acupuncture Association and what they did, basically that the, the review of the literature for, I think, the last 10 years, but there's been a lot going on the last 1015 years in acupuncture research, it's kind of exciting, actually, if you subscribe to the acupuncture keywords on PubMed, you'll get like 60 results a week of new research from all over the world, a lot of me from Asia, but also Brazil,

Unknown 8:15
everywhere, like it's, it's a hot topic in research right now. And what they found is like this now, like in terms of evidence be found a little over 50 different indications for acupuncture in terms of efficacy. So right off the bat like, right, we can maintain, of course, like crying pain, acute pain, anxiety, insomnia, depression, painful mentees, headaches, migraine flashes, constipation IDs, and the list goes on. You know, that's a lot of functional is three shows, basically a lot of things that briefly would respond to different medication you can basically treated with acupuncture.

Justin Trosclair 8:55
Okay, this is what I'm excited to know. And if it's anything like chiropractic, it's kind of like the research quite hasn't caught up to clinical results. How does it work? Are we moving ci? Do we have a more scientific reason on why it works? versus ci and hot and cold and stuff like that? Being unbound? Yeah,

Unknown 9:13
that's actually pretty common misconception about acupuncture, like, people think, you know, okay, it might work, it actually works like for over 50 to 60 different conditions. But we also know quite a bit about the mechanisms behind it is he compared to some medications and probably to a lot of medications, we know more about the mechanisms of acupuncture, he just looked at paracetamol, like a really common and inflammatory that people take all over the world, we don't really know yet why it works. We know it reduces fever, we know it's, it works on pain and inflammation. But why exactly work some hypothesis or it out there, but we haven't coined the exact mechanism. So it's, it's kind of a the case for a lot of different interventions and medication we don't know exists actually, usually what makes it work, we just basically use it because it works and I could watch has been used for such a long time. And now there's quite a mounting evidence about different mechanisms. And there's so much mechanism now that it's make more sense to look at the events per se, if you look per indication, because if you look at mechanisms of acupuncture, in general, it's like looking at mechanisms of medications general it doesn't really make sense. So sometimes it makes me smile, when I look at results from studies and conclusion this they will say like acupuncture works for this, but it doesn't work for that it's it kind of doesn't make sense for an acupuncturist because, you know, there are different ways you can address different problems with the needles and sometimes they will test one point for example, or two points in point so it's not really like realistic and doesn't

Justin Trosclair 10:57
who uses 3.0

Unknown 10:57
respond to the reality of a clinical setting basically, but even though even though it does our research work, like you will use one point they will find amazing results for a lot of things like for example, this one point that we have just below the knees, call the police and the 36 point of the stomach meridian is probably the bulk of the service in day out there and the founder results for like such a wide array of conditions that would help with and to go back to the mechanisms like if you look at magazine as a as a whole without like pinpointing different conditions like a specific condition, we know that you know, it has peripheral effects, we will trigger release of ad nauseum nitric oxide, we know what has final effects, it will modulate the sympathetic tone and the motor reflexes we know it actually then that's, that's a really exciting why the changes that functional connectivity and the brain so the study that found this is one that they were looking at carpal tunnel syndrome, and they were doing some functional MRI, you know, the, the brain scans where you can see in real time what happens with electricity is lights up. Yeah, yeah, exactly like a Christmas tree. You see the lights going up and off in the brain. And they what they found is that when you put some meals in the wrist, and the brain actually changes the way electricity is being wired in between your neurons and axon. So it's, that's for me, that's the most impressive the most spectacular evidence of the mechanisms of acupuncture because you can see it's like there's no longer like she knows something that might be there might not be there you see the electricity in the brain and more and more like it started at 1970. Some authors are suggesting like there was a doctor he was former radiologists and you first of this and she might be actually electricity in my have not been righteously transferred, translated as the energy because a lot of authors contested this translation for energy, because energy is so wishy washy. It doesn't correspond to like a specific thing. More and more words, we're seeing like probably cheap referred to electromagnetic fields or an electron transfer some things in terms of electricity, basically

Justin Trosclair 13:31
like nerve endings, potentially as well.

Unknown 13:33
Well, Durbin, they think is interesting, perhaps, because a lot of points will correspond to nerve endings. But the one thing that is the common denominator for all points is not actually nerve endings is the place in the skin where the electrical resistance is lowered, basically, you would call it in martial arts, the place where you would want to hit the opponent, because that's the place where it is weaker, because the resistance is lower. So you can actually measure that in terms of electrical output, you can measure on the skin where the traditional points were described, the electrical resistance is lower. So that's the only as far as I know, the only common denominator with all the coins that have been found in the literature, of course, son, like you said, are in nerve endings, or like close to a nerve Plexus is but it's not always the case, a lot of like, extra meridian points and a lot of extremity point they can they're not necessarily on the nerve ending. So the common denominator is really related to actually the resistance of electricity on the area.

Justin Trosclair 14:42
So two questions, then, when we're talking about we're talking about needles, does that still work if you're using an electric acupuncture pin or the cold laser Do you still get the same type of firing into the brain or that's just a different study that hasn't maybe been done well, what's interesting

Unknown 14:55
is that a lot more and more studies are coming out that compare and to acupressure with acupuncture. And there was a few studies in the last few years they were focusing on and so painful, painful mentees and labor pain for the pregnancy. And they found that it's, they're quite comfortable. It's in the sense that if they're both effective, so probably needle like, there's something there, you know, the needle Of course, it's like a it's ancient technology. Basically, it's like, if you look at the needle, it's dipole, you'll find them an organist out called the needle the solenoid of the traditional legal also works at influencing your electromagnetic field and if you look on my Instagram and put a video at the very beginning I started posting on Instagram where I put the needle on my end

Unknown 15:48
and I just dropped like a few you know the styrofoam bubbles that they couldn't mattresses and cushions and you can see the difference with my head with a needle on it with my hands with no idea what happens basically is that the small styrofoam bubble they will gather and stick to the skin where the needle is so the effect of the needle is instantaneous in terms of the electromagnetic field you can see an instantaneous raising the resistance on the surface of the skin so there's something there with the needle but one of my mentors you know, what he used to say when he started his seminars called doctors do is specialized in this county acupuncture and I went to the militia last spring to get a training with him then he started seminar saying okay so when the group save the life or save lives with acupuncture and as expected you know, maybe 1% 2%

Unknown 16:48
out of 30 people raise their hands you know because it's a loaded question we're used to training chronic condition basically in the Canadian usually when we're involved with acupuncture in the West so but he had likely a long dining experience in the emergency department and a started saying basically if you haven't saved lives but I've been practicing for a few years now you only been told the part of the story and over this access callback your pituitary and you know the electromagnetic field starts from the head and now you can act very precisely on the electromagnetic field pinpointing points on the head but what do you also said that I stayed with me said you know in case of an emergency use your nails

Unknown 17:35
you don't have needles like use your nails like do some kind of little damage on the skin and you'll get some kind of results you know so the needle also works in the sense that you make a hole in this can write the whole needs to be healed by the body and what we came here with the research on the conjunction tissue Dr. It enlightens vain she made them these tests and other direction with the research when they're connected tissue in actually it kind of resonates with newer found things I'm also you heard about

Unknown 18:08
the new Oregon they found the idiot Oregon called the interstitial

Justin Trosclair 18:12
know maybe I missed that one.

Unknown 18:15
Okay, you have to read about that one. It's it's actually a groundbreaking at paper and the senior author of this paper called Dr. Neil piece, he commented on the fact that what they found basically is space between the tissues and they used to miss out because when they do the exam with the microscope, they usually take out this layer before they cannot do the microscope readings. And they use a different kind of microscope actually one using lasers we'll talk about lasers again and they found that the space between the tissue is where the electricity travels in the body and Dr. Neil TC the senior ops read actually commented he said this will lead us to further pinpoint and detailed the mechanisms of acupuncture because those little beams of protein and these interfaces of tissues they allow for the electricity to be transmitted through have the body without any like given the structure like nerves or other things that I

Justin Trosclair 19:28
that's our cat five k with our highway there we were just that

Unknown 19:31
not even when WiFi connection problems

Unknown 19:36
to be be still discovered. Because it's it's ongoing science is an ongoing process. But my stance basically on she to respond to your question Is she is electricity. Okay, that's the simplest down to earth. most convenient way to talk about she

Unknown 19:56
today in the scientific method.

Justin Trosclair 20:01
Yeah, I'm a chiropractor. And some of us use the word innate intelligence. And it's like, that's a really weird word. But I kind of always kind of thought of it like it's kind of homeostasis, you know, your body is going to give you a fever, because you got something that is going to try to kill it. It's just trying to get you back. Yeah, and I know there's a whole hot debated topic on our end of the of the spectrum, but we'll just leave it at that we've got some terms that could be considered outdated, we're trying to update them so that at least you know, more of the community, the general public and the medical community can understand what it is that we're doing, and I think more likely to refer so I do have a follow up Canadian, the school Yeah, I'm guessing it's pretty similar to the states you got to go for like four or five years and are you considered a doctor over there are

Unknown 20:54
licensed acupuncturist

Justin Trosclair 20:55
licensed acupuncturist?

Unknown 20:57
Yeah, there was a small bar in the beginning of but with bills terms like I know in the states also the chiropractors that this

Unknown 21:05
this term for with the doctors like in terms of it, I think now in the states we can call them so doctors and chiropractors, right.

Justin Trosclair 21:12
Yes, yeah. Yeah, depends on the state to acupuncture is only like a couple states allow you to say Dr. Even though you and you know, yeah, it's like it's a doctor at school. But now I can only call myself a license like, whatever we know, we all know where this so

Unknown 21:26
I'd rather not be called a doctor anyway, be quiet on

Unknown 21:33
Are y'all covered by the health

Justin Trosclair 21:36
care system over there? Or is it case

Unknown 21:38
it's evolving, basically, like a part of it is, if you you get injured in the role, the accidents, you get some kind of coverage. And if you get injured on the workplace, also, you get some kind of coverage. But a lot of acupuncturists like myself, don't accept this, this plan, it's, it's probably gonna get there in the future, like, eventually, probably, acupuncture will be integrated in the hospital will be integrated in the system. But it's not there yet. It's mostly private, right?

Justin Trosclair 22:08
So your private practice, do you happen to have any little marketing gyms that helps you to keep your new patients and keep your patients that you already have satisfied and coming back from time to time?

Unknown 22:21
Well, basically, it's like, it's nothing complicated. I just tried to keep it really simple, like seeing myself being honest with people telling them what, what I can do, what can I do for them being there for them, you know, when they have a question? And I think that always works basically, like, it's, it's, it's a question, I'm staying human, because a lot of people when they come to us, I think they've, they've been through a lot of different things that didn't work most of the time. And this sometimes, like, they lose trust in the whole healthcare as the system, you know, and they're trying something new when they so they want to be heard, they want to be attempt to know that we can tell them what we can do for them. And what are the limits of the intervention. So I try to keep it honest, you know, when really simple and to to be to we to stay myself basically. Because if you're trying to, to sell what you're doing to people will, people will know what they'll feel it. So in terms of marketing, like, for me, it's more about faith D, being able to talk about what I'm doing, able to write about what I'm doing to be able to network with the different actors in the healthcare environment in my area, it's more related to a way of doing than actual, like, key secrets of marketing.

Justin Trosclair 23:50
Right? When you get nice branding your Instagrams, nice, your email templates are good. I mean, you got a nice professional image out there, which is obviously a bonus, and it's something that you've obviously worked hard to keep, and create. And let's go Yeah, it's amazing that when you give people what they want, and treat them like a human being, it's like, they they respond to that, then they said, they don't want to be sold. That's so true. So I love it. You know, whether it's China, Canada, or America, people are people and they tend to respond in very similar, yes, any suggestions for it could be the college kid who's trying to figure out what they want to do in life, or the acupuncture is who's not quite happy in their job, whether it's because of finances, or they're just, they're kind of struggling, any kind of advice that you can get

Unknown 24:34
the people that think about doing acupuncture?

Justin Trosclair 24:37
Yeah, either they're thinking about doing it, or someone like who's been doing it for four or five years, that just like me, I'm, I'm barely making my rent, it's not financially like, is there a way any advice to just have them like mind shift, you should do acupuncture, you need to go to maybe a different kind of seminar because you've lost the passion or there's something going on, you're not

as successful as you should be. With this amazing,

Unknown 25:01
I'd say, just don't do it.

Unknown 25:04
Because if you want to do acupuncture, you have to be I think, in this this environment, like this environment, I've been

Unknown 25:12
basically a custom with, you have to be determined, because there's a lot of obstacles on the way basically, because a lot of people won't understand what you're doing, a lot of people will like, try to diss what you're doing. Because like a lot, there's a lot of misconception, like we said earlier around the science basically around surrounding gang puncture. So you have to be really solid, I think about about what you want to do, and you know, the efforts you want to put into actually do it. Basically, I think it's the highest reward you get from doing such a job is seeing people getting better, basically, and getting inspired by which you're bringing and getting inspired yourself after that, seeing those people being able to get back our lives, get back to whatever they want to do their call to do. So basically, that's what keeps me going like every day is the people I see that give me inspiration to keep doing what I'm doing, basically, because if I won't get that reward, you know, I don't think I would still be doing it 11 years later down the road. Because that's you need something to to motivate you. Basically, if you're not motivated by a good reason to do what you're doing, it will just become another job. Like the one before that we taught. It wasn't good enough, you know,

Justin Trosclair 26:40
yeah, it's easy burnout. If all you focus about is the financial reward, you'll be burned out. But if you got the why I'm helping people on a regular basis.

Unknown 26:48
Yeah, up acupuncture, I'm guessing people don't get better in two visits. Correct. Usually the treatments is a series of treatments like we will call one treatment, Siri, have maybe 10 follow up 16 follow up depending on what we treat. And it was a really interesting study that was published on permission to in terms of the persistence of effects for chronic pain. And it was published in 2017 last year actually. And for me, it's like a redefinition of cost effectiveness in terms of health care. Because what they found, it's that on the home level, we found that 12 months after the intervention, which basically consisted of, if I remember correctly, it was between 10 and 15 treatments. In that case, they found that 90% of the effect of the treatments was still there after 12 months, you know, sure. Yeah, that's, that's really huge. Because most of these, they will end the follow up at three months, if you look at other interventions, or medications, and you don't have information after that, sometimes months, but that's considered like Exceptional Life, 12 months, that's like a new a whole new benchmark for evaluating cost effectiveness in terms of interventions. And what I'd be curious to see is what is they did like, pursue this study for three years, or four years, what what would they have found, you know, because 90% after 12 months is basically like, the effective so there, you know, so it does make sense like do the treatment like your acupuncturist tells you to do to go through the course of treatments, and basically do it until the end, it's like, sometimes I'll use the example with my patients, most people are taking antibiotics once in their life, right. And I'll see, you know, remember the doctor, when you prescribe antibiotics, he's told you, you have to tell them to take them for three days, or 10 days, whatever. And if you stop before, you might get a relaxed from the infection, it's not like, you'll lose the effects from the acupuncture if you stop after you've gotten the effect. But I think there's like a sweet spot that that's usually there most conditions, and there's not a lot of research that like focuses on the dose of acupuncture if you want to call it that like, but those that did focus on that they found usually sweet spot is around 12 treatments for a lot of conditions. And then sometimes you need to like do some more treatments later on. Maybe the following year was this systems that symptoms come back, but there's usually a sweet spot of a certain amount of sales you need to do before you get the results for a long lasting results

Justin Trosclair 29:36
within the to have the same lifestyle that they had before. So it's not uncommon for that to create the problem and to enjoy it and aggravated later on in the same year, perhaps,

Unknown 29:46
yeah, well, you know, I'm sure you know, about I'll be doing China right did like an honest it's still the case. But my one of my accent, Chinese mentor, what she told me is that traditionally, they do it every day, until they get better. Basically, they like the the end of the get a problem, they go to the hospital and they'll do it. That's how they used to do it. That honestly is still the case in China. But

Justin Trosclair 30:10
well, they have insurance coverage now. So you can imagine. So we do between eight and 10 days in a row. And that's acupuncture and chiropractic, no breaks unless I take a day off or you know what I mean, and if they don't get better in that amount of time for him to have to take a break, and then they can come back. But that's it. They're using their ensure that makes

Unknown 30:29
sense. Usually what I'll do with the different philosophy over here, because like people are not as don't understand mindset, you they think like, they're still in the mindset, even though they're doing acupuncture and the mindset that they're taking a pill, basically the thing I'm going to take, and I'm going to get there, so.

Unknown 30:48
So usually like what's in between, like your approach and what I'll be doing, I'll be usually in the beginnings like an acute phase, I'll see the people ideally every like 48 to 72 hours between every treatment, and once they get better, they start getting better will space it like to once a week, because what we found them at least for inflammation we were working on inflammation is like, you'll get a plateau of the effects around 72 hours after the treatment. And then it can stop, it gets start, like downgrading so bad. So you want to take the patient before the end of that plateau, ideally, of course, every day for it. And there's less like the idea of course of treatment.

Justin Trosclair 31:32
We know they said, we look into a lot of exercise, it's a big, it's a hot thing where you know, that like you can adjust all day, but you should be doing exercises for the patients long term. Yeah, they were doing things like core exercises versus just kind of going to the gym and lifting weights, assuming you know, they can do it event or initially like they had an acute injury, you know, the easier core so easier, but the core stuff work better. But after 12 months, they're like, it didn't really make a difference. Which one they started with. The biggest difference was them actually doing some Yeah, and that's why they encourage them. Like, just find something you enjoy. So you actually will do that. And that way that's better than doing nothing at all. So I was like, that's pretty that's pretty cool.

Unknown 32:13
I think that's part of like our work awesome food. Like we're sort of, we need to be cheerleaders about like, the their success you know about the patients like, keep going, like, do something about it. Don't stay in that state, nation, and like and build like anger about what you're going through. You have to keep moving, keep inspired about trying new, different things. Different exercise, like you mentioned.

Justin Trosclair 32:39
Well, so so many of them, they forget pretty quick how bad they were when they first started. And then for some of them, it's psycho psycho social were like, no, that's going to hurt you like No, just try to bend over and tie your shoe. And they're like, oh, it doesn't really hurt. You're like, yeah, you're scared.

Unknown 32:54
That's the only memory a fan can be really strong. Actually experimented that for myself the first time last summer because I sprained my ankle. And I, for the first time I realized myself what people are going through when I treat them. And the tags are still in pain. Like you're mentioning for a few days. I was not walking in a because I remember much painfully wasn't the beginning. And then one of my friends came over. He said, Okay, how long have you been like rolling in your chair was willing with in my office,

Unknown 33:28
three people, one of their patients, they told me let me do something to help you. That was kind of funny. And after a week or so. Like my friend told me Okay, maybe you should try walking I said, Okay, I'll try and I just tried to walk in, I found that I was like, there was no pain anymore. I was just scared of triggering that pain. Again, no bells for me because I realized Okay, that's what my patients are going through when they say they're still in pain but they're actually not you know where they're actually getting better but they're stuck in the memory that there was this painful stimuli that was there not so long ago

Justin Trosclair 34:05
It still hurts doc I know but it's like a two out of 10 now like It only hurts a little will still hurts like all right well I didn't promise 100% painting a goal but oh man

Unknown 34:17
it also when you do the follow up some people become for maybe three or four different issues and then you've got you come in and you still have you know that negative mindset when you ask him our you feel bad so bad so I was this that was that was this other thing like tree out a form that things are gone there's still this one thing that lead and they're not doing well.

Justin Trosclair 34:43
Olivia your junk?

Oh, well, let's switch gears a little bit. Well, I still got some time with you. We always find it's important to unplug from work are you able to take vacation? And if not, what's your plan?

Unknown 34:56
Well, we tried to take like about a month of vacation every year kind of good at that actually we don't take it all at the same time we take like two or three different periods I could eventually I think take more was kind of a therapy laser answering those questions you send me before the podcast because I said now maybe I can change this and that you know Justin as good idea they're going to think about that. But for their vacation I think if I would have to take more I would need to hire more people because for now like I'm working my clinic with my wife that she's my assistant but I would actually need to hire another acupuncturist I would need if I would take more than a month and I haven't done that yet. You know, I'm open.

Justin Trosclair 35:41
That's a lot in one sitting an entire month or six weeks off at once.

Unknown 35:44
So break it up, you know, tour vacation. Yeah,

Justin Trosclair 35:49
I think it will get well I say that. Yeah, I did. I had like five or weeks off the other last year. And a good long Yeah, you know, maybe because of where I was at. But I like the idea of like, every couple of months having a vacation. That's kind of fun. It's something to look forward to the back to

school besides work. You said you know why if you got any hobbies are things that keep you distracted and motivated to kids.

Unknown 36:14
So that does keep me motivated and distracted. So one is the is starting a teenage years and the other is still in grade school. So a lot of my time goes to my kids and my wife when I'm not working. I'm also a musician and sort of a slacker musician. I'm not like always playing but it's my therapy. It's my personal therapy. My go to I music is always been part of my life. And I always go back to it when I add time when I make time for it. And basically,

Justin Trosclair 36:48
what's your instrument

Unknown 36:49
I play guitar I sing I played percussion is also Who is this cool?

Justin Trosclair 36:55
What's your genre?

Unknown 36:57
I do a lot of different things right now, I believe been working at me and a friend. You know, that's we never met in person. But you work on multiple different project. Because now we can so easy to send files across the Internet, and just work it work on it. And then you send it back. And it's sort of like, have a conversation basically. And here's a riff, there's a real Exactly, and we ended up doing a few songs like that. And it was interesting because it's working on something that basically involves two people in two different completely different setting different lives. And it eventually leads to something right, like a piece of art, basically,

Justin Trosclair 37:39
that's pretty cool. Have you have you ever looked at like five or something like that, where you do bust out a little, little jingle for somebody,

Unknown 37:47
I started using it fiber for my, my website, I mean, contact right now with a guy in in India, and he's working on the scheduling app for my website. And it's been enjoyable, effective, because I've been been tracking, talking about about life, you know, in general, also, it's a different rhythm over there. So I'm not like pushing too much. But he's not done yet. He didn't take his class to do so sure about fiber yet, but I started experiencing with it,

Justin Trosclair 38:16
I've done a lot of fire, I'll say this. I had one person from like India or Pakistan, wherever it was. And whenever it wasn't the WordPress it just it was kind of like a fake lead pages. And I'm supposed to like capture people's email, whatever it was, it just, it would crash and it would never work. It would always like revert back and it took too long weeks longer than used to it. And I was just like, you know what I'm done with you. And I felt bad, but I didn't feel bad because you didn't deliver. But everything else I've done. I've gotten jingles a lots of like, logos. I'm getting a business card made as we speak t shirt designs. I just love it. I can't say enough good things about fiber. However, I have spent some money that I wish I could get back because the product returned like, dang, I gotta start over.

Unknown 38:58
And in general, you weren't. You got some positive experiences from it, right? That's what I heard from a lot,

Justin Trosclair 39:03
right? Even if you waste 20 bucks. So the she didn't spend 300 and realize like, okay, but I mean, there are sites like 99 designs that I'll do stuff if you're looking for like logos. And in a way going on a tangent of Justin's passions on this,

what do you do with your spouse to keep the love alive and feel connected?

Unknown 39:21
Well, the one thing we have to do with the since we're working together, we have to create some sacred spaces, sacred times, where we're not talking about work, not talking about what we're going to do what we did, and whatever, just like enjoying ourselves and doing other things. And we have like a romantic getaway coming along soon, because we both have our birthdays on the same day was yesterday, actually. Oh, happy birthday. So we, we planned this last weekend, we're going to go on a romantic getaway. So we're looking forward to that. So we're trying to do like, different things, and just work the, it's easy to get the sense also, I work from the ground floor of my house, you know, so I asked to, over the years I developed like, you know, stealth ninja abilities to go from work mode to weekend will like, almost instantly and automatically for my wife is newer. Like for her. She'd been involved with different kinds of works, and before, so, but we have to always keep that balance to, you know, work is important. But life is important. Also, work is a part of life, it can become like your whole life. And my vision. When I first started, I want what I want is like to basically be able to, to integrate work in my life, instead of making my whole life and by work. So I pictured myself, you know, gardening, and then a patient comes along and wash my hands, I go back in the clinic can then that the patient is resting and do a discussion, then another one comes along, can go back to the garden. So that, you know, sort of integrate the work into the seamlessly and to the lifelong because I think work sometimes a lot of what brings people you were mentioning burnout before is the make work the first priority, and they forget about the other priorities. And that you can do that for very long, you'll be able to sustain for a while. But it's, it's it won't stick in the long run. So you have to be able to find that balance

Justin Trosclair 41:29
when you're working with, right, because I work with my own wife as well. But Are y'all are you able to how do you manage not like wanting to fire her? She might be awesome. So she never needs to get fired. But, you know, there's certain things you like, I wish she would just do it my way or, you know, like you can do with that employee Does that ever come up, or there's enough just kind of mutual respect, we don't have to deal with it. It's

Unknown 41:48
only two years and we're working together. But for me, it's been like a learning experience in the sense that I'm such a control freak, you know, I admitted myself and, you know, as a business owner, I think all of us are some some level

Justin Trosclair 42:05
kind of have to be a little

Unknown 42:06
Yeah. So it's basically what I learned in the last few years is that my way is not necessarily always the best way, you know, she has her ways and she for for a lot of things, she's better than me, actually, I got better because of her you know, and I'm really thankful for that. Because she's really good. She's She's, she's has helped me to grow basically an on multiple levels, not only like, on a personal level be even I I'd say on a business level, because she has experienced from other fields and other environments that are working environments. And that was brought to the table and I can't thank you enough for that. So of course, you know, when there's tension at work, like if it's not your spouse, when you leave work, it's over. So the challenge when you're working with a spouse is to be able to to keep that harmony you know, keep that army going. You don't need to find it, it's not. So if you keep things in perspective, work is one of the things you have to keep it that way work is just one of the things in life

Justin Trosclair 43:11
very good. We're gonna wrap this thing up here happen to have a favorite books, blogs or podcasts that you secretly love. And some that you just have to recommend everybody look at,

Unknown 43:21
well, I'm always reading something I can tell you what I'm reading now. I'm reading this book called The dullness economists by Keith Roberts. And it's, it's actually pretty interesting because what she's saying in that book, I'm not done yet,

Unknown 43:38
you know about this book. know, it just it fit. Yeah, it is. And it's basically what she's saying is like, we're in this mindset for a few generations now that we want to grow and grow and grow, you know, the economy needs to grow, businesses need to grow, etc. But what she points out is that nothing in nature eternally grows, you know, it's eventually reaches that point where there's a balance, and then change comes and then a lot of the what grew will fall and then something else will appear. So I think it's, it's a really good lessons for all the entrepreneurs are there that are like, in this, this old fashion, thinking of like, you need to grow and grow and grow, I think we need to be shifting gradually, like the consciousness to

Unknown 44:30
get into, where's the balance, basically, because systems cannot grow internally. So balances, I think, is, should be one of our priorities at this point, then what, like, the main takeaway for me is that, then you need to be happy with what you have, at some point, you know, 11 years down the road, I'm pretty lucky, you know, I'm really busy. Like, I can't complain. And it's not about, you know, always wanting more at this point. It's about, you know, sharing what I know, and being able to, to keep helping people, but not like developing, you know, this, this never ending appetite for more basically,

Justin Trosclair 45:14
I think of the banks, at least in America, you had with a big Fallout A while back. And it's like, you got the shareholders who always want dividends in retirement. And then you also have the side we're like, okay, you make so much profit, you don't think you could like pony up a little bit more for better wages, or for better health insurance coverage for your employees or something like, sure, there'll be a dip in your profit. But, you know, $500 million profit is still pretty good. You know, maybe it wasn't 654, like, you supported all your employees so much bad. It's like, but no, we need to make 700 million this year is like, all right, well, okay. Then, at some point, there's got to be a balance. So there's gotta

Unknown 45:49
be exactly as far as we didn't go, like what I tried to do these days, when I read, I tried to write something about it afterwards, you know, to keep my brain alive. And, and also, so I put my wife to this assignment. Also, because a lot of books he reads, I look at them as, Wow, that looks interesting. But I had no time. So I, I tell her, okay, I'll pay you for your time, I'll give you like, whatever, like certain amount for hours that you'll need to do like a resume that book and she she spits out with 10 or 20 pages, the resume and I read it. And I feel like I read the book, I haven't, of course, by learn new things, you know. And when I have a few, like, lying around right now, one of the ones that I'm looking forward to read this one called ADHD, and Francis Francis ad, and she pulled off in there, they could do pass, and those are fine. It's actually packed with evidence. And it literally translates to ADHD coming to an end to doping kids. So it's really interesting, I'm looking forward to writing some a piece about it, like trying to

Unknown 46:53
create like a password with the evidence about acupuncture for ADHD. Because one of my main interest is working with kids. Also, we haven't talked about that. But so I want to study a little more about that before I write something. But there's certainly there's something to be learned about how we're doing things with kids in general, because that can watch again, work for so many things. But kids, and especially the response so fast in between, because their metabolism is so fast and easily need more, a lot less treatment that adults need. Those who need more fitness kids will need a lot less. In general,

Justin Trosclair 47:30
I'll make the note that make sure people to stay to the end of the episode for the thing about kids. But if you have a couple minutes, talk about what it is that you you're passionate about what the kids what are you treating with kids so that people from around the world can be like, Oh, I didn't even think about acupuncture for X, Y, and Z. And my kid has that and it's so frustrating. So if you could take a couple minutes and talk Yeah,

Unknown 47:51
sure. Well, actually, this passion was ignited because my my my oldest daughter, she has peanut allergy. And the first time that happened, she was sitting on my lap and we were eating just delicious Thai style of

Unknown 48:07
dish with that add like basically, Tina Sawsan. And it was so good. I was eating and she was trying it out. I don't even think she tried. She was like, just play with my ball at that when she was still breast best. Better. That way.

Unknown 48:22
We started noticing it rash on her skin or greetings. Time to be a laborious, he was basically going in shock. Okay, so it was first time I never saw it was just out of acupuncture school. And I remember the point on the forearm, it's, it's quite the alarm point of the lung. Okay, if the six point on the lung meridian and I said, you know what the hell I'm gonna try it. And the needle I basically stabbed or within, you know, because what I remember from the class is you you really strong stimulation in case of shock. So, I did it on both sides. And I really, you know, stimulated the needles and to my surprise, lo and behold, it worked. Okay. She not only any, like hospital intervention, that and actually repeated experience, like three or four times on the on the third time, I remember I was just coming home. And at that time, my sister was living upstairs. And she was with my, my daughter, and she forgot about the peanut butter jar on their calendar and the app already called the ambulance and the the first responding were on their way. And when I came in, I did the acupuncture and and just a few minutes later they came in and I had to sign these waivers like 15 pages of waiver saying like, it's okay, I don't need to take my kids

Justin Trosclair 49:46
not responsible. Not really.

Unknown 49:47
Are you sure you did acupuncture? We're not there yet to the hospital? No, no, it's fine to other times before and really works. You know. So that really changed something in my mindset, because, of course, in school, they don't talk about much about that these things, you know, they don't emphasize, because it's basically a matter of life and death, I would not publicize the treatment like that, because the topic I'm the person who comes in and probably be dead, right? Yeah,

Justin Trosclair 50:13
yeah. So.

Unknown 50:14
So one of the things like I'm, I'm excited about in the future is eventually leading a program and the the, er, the pediatric car that would focus on studying different acute conditions that children go through commonly like acute bronchitis, acute asthma,

Unknown 50:40
maybe even shocking noise there, we get there in time and stuff like that. I think, you know, kids are so open, they're so willing to, you know, to when they feel you're there to take care the so much trust, you know, it's not like added like the yet a lot of adults, the lab is barrier kids, it's, it's not there. And also all of the treatments the work so well, and so fast, and the kids so that really is and rewarding for a therapist when you work with kids. That's awesome.

Justin Trosclair 51:13
Man. That's powerful story story itself. And stories are what we love. And that is that was a great story and truth. Obviously, I hope that you can in your career, that you can make some headway ways to get into the hospitals like that, because that would be fantastic. Yeah,

Unknown 51:29
I do work sometimes in the hospital, I do hospital and own calls. You actually my Wednesdays are dedicated to hospitals and own calls. So I do but when I do that, I'm I heard by the patient. It's not like a job in the hospital. So the one of the things needs to be addressed here. Like some places around the world, they started doing studies in the ER, like, there was this really interesting study that was published in 2016, they found that for acute pain, acupuncture actually beats intravenous morphine, not only in terms of safety, of course, like we have that with it, and actually beats it in terms of efficacy. And in terms of repetitively of onset of effects. Basically, it works faster than the intravenous morphine because like you mentioned early earlier, it's electrical reaction, you know, and the doctor I talked to you about a few minutes ago, he actually in the ER, he allegedly brought people back from the dead that that cardiac arrest because by the time he injected the medication, the patient is His heart is not pumping anymore. But when you're on the head, something is triggered, and the electrical level and yet that's what he says, but I haven't seen with my eyes. But he said that he actually brought a few patient back from the dead like that. So a lot of what we're doing with acupuncture, it works on instantaneous level. And for acute pain, it's so rewarding, because it's not like treating acute pain, like you were saying earlier, like you need 10 or 12 treatments. We treat acute pains A lot of times, like the patient is better when they get off the table. Right. So I think a lot of the studies that are going on different places around the world that are focusing on er interventions saw this needs to be happening here. Also, I'd like to be part of that eventually.

Justin Trosclair 53:30
Well, wish you good luck on that one. I know that's going to be an uphill battle and trying to figure out who you got to talk to.

Yeah, hopefully we can help you with that somehow. So well, how can people get in contact with you? websites, social media, all that jazz? Well,

Unknown 53:46
thank you. I'm very well reference on Google. So if you type my name on Google, you'll find me pretty quick. If you type acupuncture Montreal, and will you find it also that my website address is lackey and nick.net. So it's kind of fun. It's kind of funny name because net in French, it refers to the internet but it also can refer to clean so that's why I chose.net instead of.com because it also means the clean clinic so it's spelled la si l i n i qu e dot n et lackey and a.net. You can find me there an Instagram profile that we try to keep alive, you know, a few posts a week that certain extent. So Sandy spelled sh a MTI we also post on Facebook on the same name we have a page with the same name on Facebook so you can find us there you can reach us there

Justin Trosclair 54:45
what what is that Clinique shanty? What's that about? Amazingly,

Unknown 54:49
Saturday refers to the like the origins of when I started because when I started, Lino like I mentioned I was doing massage therapy. I was teaching yoga and chanting just was to an ancient Sanskrit word that refers to peace, you know, so I realized when I first time, what do I want to bring out there, you know, with what's the one thing I want people to, you know, take back from their experience coming to see me, I come to the glue conclusion. Basically, I want them to be able to reconnect with that piece they have inside, you know, so that's for me, the highest goal, whatever they're coming from, if at some point, you know, I can help them reconnect with that inner peace we all have lying inside. I know I'll be I've done like a really good job. So that's where the name comes from. Superb. Merci beaucoup for being on the show, sir. Thanks for having me. Justin. That's done like a therapy. Basically, for me asking those questions. All those like, you know why you're doing this? We're doing that. How can you make it better? So it was good for me to do it. Awesome.

Justin Trosclair 55:56
Oh, that's what I like to hear. It takes us out of our own little shell and makes question what is going on with that

people ask a good bit. How do you monetize a podcast? Well, if you have a big enough audience, you can just get advertisers and they just pay you a fee. Other times you get a little creative, like with affiliates. So you recommend a product and you get a commission but hopefully you actually enjoy the product that you're recommending. And in this case, I do so a doctor's perspective. NET slash resources. You have all this stuff like blueberry for the hosting. That's why I use set for set they've got these wild steel mazes. Well, I don't use that they do have these power bands. And they're great for stretching and mobilizing joints that definitely locked up mentor box, get a book listen to it by the author summarizing the book, but also things that they learned since they wrote it as well as a workbook to help you out. We got primal doc as a coupon code for primal health. Bone broth, it's paleo auto immune diet based. You got no sugar, no soy, no, no allergies, no gluten you dairy and you can save 10% off with the promo code. You got Russell Brunson and Click Funnels. If you ever want.com secrets or expert secrets if you click that link and get the book at a good price as what has helped me out and the only that Amazon anything that the guests recommend. If you see a hot link, a blue link in the show notes, you click those and by one of the books are under the products. I'll give a piece of that and I appreciate it. We've got new t shirts, we got a Louisiana theme. It's my home state, some kind of fond of it. We gotta make lemonade eliminates t shirt, and of course, some chiropractic shirts that are tongue in cheek, but hopefully you guys like them. And gals. Also, if you're into lessons learned in China. My first book exercises stretches help with numbness, budgeting, all that type of thing. You can try four chapters free, a doctor's perspective. NET slash chapters, also acupuncture if you like, no needle acupuncture, if you like that idea if you always wanted to try it, but you don't have one nearby or you just don't have two hours a day go you know commuting and getting the treatment everything is something you do at your house 30 minutes for a little over a week. And you'll see results now a doctor's perspective net slash in a protocol as in needless acupuncture. So in a protocol you get four chapters for free these complete with the words and the pictures and how to do it how when you should do it all those types of questions, anxiety, insomnia, back pain headaches, so check that out, you'll be forwarded to a page will a video and are going to do is put your email in and if you don't like the upsell after that, just scroll to the bottom click know and then you'll get the next page that's where you can actually download them. Also, if you looked at doing an acupuncture pen, it's kind of like a 10s unit you would use for your muscles but it's been modified for stimulating acupuncture points off of a nine volt battery in go to a doctor's perspective. NET slash Ethan you can buy that on the website as well. Thank you all so much for checking out all these resources and if you have any questions please let me know rank is five stars. leave a review greatly appreciated as always, if you have any special guests that you would love to hear, or a series that you would like reach out the top right of the website have all the social media icons just click the one that your favorite and connect

we just went hashtag behind the curtain and this episode has come to an end. I hope you got the right dose for your optimal life. Please spread the word about this podcast by telling to friends, share it on social media and visit the show notes on a doctor's perspective. net to see all the references from today's guests. A sincere thank you in advance. You've been listening to Dr. Justin trust Claire giving you a doctor's perspective.

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About the Author
Dr. Justin Trosclair, D.C., an expert in Chiropractic Care, has been focusing on back and neck pain relief for over 12 years and has delivered treatment to more than 6000 patients. With advanced training in treating disc derangement conditions, you can count on him to keep up to date with the latest research in physical medicine for spinal pain. He has 5 years of hospital experience in China, is currently working in Germany, and had a private practice in Colorado for 6 years. Dr. Trosclair hosts a doctor to doctor interview podcast called ‘A Doctor’s Perspective‘ with over 220 episodes. During his free time he wrote 3 books. Today’s Choices Tomorrow’s Health (rebooting health in 4 categories), a Do-It- Yourself acupressure book for 40 common conditions called Needle-less Acupuncture, and a step by step guide to look like a local for Chinese dinner culture called Chinese Business Dinner Culture. If you have kids, you may be interested in his 6 series tri-lingual animal coloring book series (english, spanish and chinese).