Hawkgrips offer an innovative cross grip pattern on their stainless steel instruments so that they aren’t so slick. This makes the instrument assisted soft tissue manipulation tools easier on the clinicians hands because they don’t have to grip so hard to keep the tools from slipping. Twelve tools with all sorts of sizes, patterns, concave, convex angles and more to give you the optimal angles to work on the myofascial issues.
The first sale was in 2012 after two years of product development. He discusses his tragic ski accident story and how that was the catalyst to create these Hawkgrips IASTM instruments.
Fascinating story of how he was kind of forced into offering seminars and his now unique approach to continuing education for his tools versus how most companies approach it. Courses have been given at the white house, walter reed, delta force, Yankees, Mayo Clinic, Cleveland Clinic, Johns Hopkins and more.
Hawkgrips doesn’t want to be another “me too” of products; there are enough kinesio tape products. I only want to produce products that are better than what’s already in the rehab market or something unique. New on the market is a water based emolument called HawkHydro. HawkHydro will make for easy clean up so you can do muscle stim or kinesio tape afterwards.
Take good care of your customers and gain word of mouth- best advertising. Most proud of the relationships built over the last few years with clients. His advice on staff: Hire slowly , fire quickly.
Mention “PODCAST15″ for 15% off all orders. Limited Time Only.
Dr. Mark Butler DPT works at select medical Novacare. All of his seminars and teaching experience etc are mentioned on the show, so listen to it.
The Technique of Hawkgrips IASTM started as a scar adhesion removal system but now the science is starting to show that it’s a neuromuscular interaction and change that is causing most of the benefits. The courses are set up as a problem solving course, as well as a technique course to learn how to hold and use the instruments, but practical application is built for you to learn concepts not cookie cutter blueprints.
A big term is mechano-transduction. A cellular response occurs when we sheer or stress the cell. The basic peptides of pain or mechano-sensitive.
Mark and I go in-depth into how and why the instruments work, based on science, theory as well as clinical experience. Movement normalizes, normalization of tissue causes a healing response (it gets upgraded) , changes in muscle tone balance out and this all equates to getting a much more rapid return to function. I highly suggest listening to the second half because it’s pretty much some great neurology overview and some new concepts about how manipulating soft tissue creates a neurological change and rewiring the nervous system.
Show notes can be found at www.adoctorsperspective.net/20 here you can also find links to things mentioned, the Travel Tip and the interview transcription.
Justin Trosclair 0:00
Episode 20 unlock miles special adhesions McKenna receptor reset the hot grips,
instrument assisted soft tissue manipulation. I'm your host, Dr. Justin trust clear. And today we're Frank I was born and Dr. Mark
for doctors who want a thriving practice and abundant home life. Listen
as your host Dr. Justin shows Claire goes behind the curtain can interviews
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struggles, practical tips and entertainment on this episode of a doctor's perspective.
Today on the show we have something special today we had two guests never done it before. I think it turned out quite good. First we have Frank Osborne, the creator of hot grips, instrument assisted soft tissue manipulation. He talks about his ski accident and how that created the catalyst for these instruments. And the big specialty there is they've got a real good grip pattern so you don't slip out your hands. They are in major places like the Mayo Clinic, the Yankees, Walter Reed, even the White House uses these instruments we're going to new product that he has. And we also talked to Dr. Mark Butler physical therapist because you knows about the actual science behind what's going on. Now he's a Board Certified orthopedic clinical specialist, the Kinsey certified, you got 25 years experience he teaches all the time, over 200 weekend courses, nerve mobilization, exam and treatment of the shoulder, cervical spine, lumbar spine taping radiology is presented and more than 25 national and regional conferences. He's been married for 30 years. He spent two years in Korea and he's actually fluent in that maybe I should a focus on Chinese little bit more because it can be done. He authored a shoulder chapter in the textbook fundamentals of hand therapy, clinical reasoning and treatment guidelines for common diagnosis of the hand and upper extremity. He's been published in peer and non peer reviewed professional journals. His doctor physical therapy was actually done at Regent University in Denver, my old stomping grounds he has received the prestigious James Tucker excellence in clinical practice and Teaching Award by the New Jersey chapter of the American Physical Therapy Association currently manages the Medford Nova care office, as you see here, well qualified to speak on the subject, definitely, you want to check out the show notes, a doctor's perspective.net slash 20 because they got a lot of good information for the links and some of the basic concepts of what we talked about, like the term mechanical transduction. And we also discuss courses and favorite books, podcast, you know, all the regular things. So stay tuned. At the end of the show, we will have a special discount code as well. Let's go hashtag behind the curtain.
Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to the show. This is our first time we're going to have two guests on at the exact same time. We've got the founder, the president Frank Oz, Boomer, and the doctor, physical therapists, clinical trainer, Mark Butler, and their company is called Hawk grips. Welcome to
Thank you for having us.
Justin Trosclair 2:52
Thank you. Absolutely. For all the audience is instrument assisted soft tissue mobilization, they've got about nine or 10 tools.
That's correct. Yeah, right of actually about 10 or 11, we're coming out with a couple new handlebars in the next month or two. Okay,
Justin Trosclair 3:07
and for most of you guys, if your physical therapist if you're a chiropractor, maybe even a massage therapist, you've seen these tools before their their stainless steel, and I think this company has a unique advantage because they had and I'm gonna have you guys talked about it, of course, but because they have these cross grips on the tools, so they're not so slippery, correct?
exactly when one of the main benefits of our instruments are, you know, you're going to be using a soft tissue a moment, kind of like a cocoa butter on the on the patient's skin. And it just makes all the various tools or instruments slippery. And what kind of sets us apart is we did we do have the cross hatched gripping, just so it's much more economical. The whole point is not only does it work well for the patients, but you know, it's supposed to save the clinicians hands and, you know, if you're squeezing so tightly onto the the instruments, then then you know, you're kind of defeating the purpose in the first place. So it's a nice advantage that we have over all the other competitors.
Justin Trosclair 4:01
And I can attest to that and you're a fan and or whatever and then slips out your hand or your fingers get all stiff from slipperiness. Russell I like I like that idea. This is Frank is the owner because you're not a doctor. So how did you come up with designing these tools and wanting to get into this this profession?
Sure. Thank you. It's a it's a it's a kind of a long answer. But basically what happened was right out of college back in 1997, if you can believe that now. I was I was in a bad skiing accident up in the Pocono Mountains in Pennsylvania, I wiped out and went off the mountain. And I don't remember too much about it. But what happened was I broke my neck in a couple places see, for see five, I broke my back at t six the burst fracture combinator fractures in my left wrist and arm, a lot of soft tissue tears. So, you know, I was I was actually met of actual Hospital in Pennsylvania. So I survived. And I, you know, I wasn't paralyzed. So relatively for the, for the injuries I came across, you know, okay. But what happened was, you know, after all the surgeries and some of the rehab, I was, I still felt very restricted. I did lots and lots of physical therapy with a lot of chiropractors, that a lot of alternative stuff, kinda like the, the acupuncture, the gloss, Shah, the role thing, massage, you know, and everything helped a little bit, but I never really found that, you know, that that answered that I was looking forward to kind of, again, help with those restrictions. So from 1997, until about 2008, I kind of tell people just so again, because I'm not clinical, I can't explain things, you know, like you and Mark can, I'm sure you see patients all the time that have pain, but it's kind of hard to describe, for about 11 years, I tell people that I would park my car, away from all the other cars in order, so I could just drive straight out, you know, if I was in a parking lot, because I was not able to turn my my head, literally swivel it and look behind me and I wasn't able to turn my back. So I sold a story actually on the news for one of our main competitors, actually, it's called grass didn't technique. You know, I think a lady had some elbow issues. She had surgery, she had done a lot of different modalities. And it wasn't until she was treated with these grasped and instruments. And again, I was just the guy watching the news. She was just raving about how effective it was. So I thought, hey, why not try this place? Why not try this technique since I've tried so many other things. So, you know, I went I went to the the physical therapy clinic, it's called dresser physical therapy. It's owned by a guy named Matt Seabrook, good friend of mine. Now, you know, we went over my history, I give them my insurance card. And, you know, he was kind of amazed that, you know, I was I was walking and I looked relatively healthy. And he said, you know, where should we even start? And I said, Well, why don't we start on my neck. So he pulled out, you know, these weird metal instruments almost sound like a sales rep for our competitors. We started working on my neck, it was it was very intense. I don't know, if you guys have ever had role thing, that's probably the closest I could say because again, it was very intense. But it was still different. You know, after probably 30 seconds, he told me to lower my head and raise it. So he was using the instruments while I was moving my head up and down. And then he told me to slowly turn my head to the right. And then to the left, and to the right, and to the left, and probably the third or fourth time, he told me to turn my head to the left, I kept turning and turning and turning until I literally looked over my shoulder for the first time in about 11 years. And I was just like mesmerized and said, Wow, this is this is unbelievable. Why doesn't every physical therapist in the world do this? Again, I was a patient I don't. And that's kind of, you know, at least how I started. I was aware of the modality. And then obviously, I reached out to the company, I would have been a big fan or advocate things kind of just went downhill unfortunately, between myself and the grass and people at that point. But literally up until that point, I was really just amazed that at at the tools and the technique and and the range of motion that I was able to get literally in about two minutes over the past 11 years.
Justin Trosclair 7:53
Absolutely. How long have y'all been open for
you know, so mark, actually, Mark doesn't work at Hawk reps, he works for SELECT Medical Nova care. he's a he's an instructor for us. And he helped me early on. Because again, once we developed an education program, Mark has the expertise that that I didn't do. So our first sale. Again, this was a one person company, I was literally doing everything from driving to the UPS store to you know, dealing with the the engineers and the metal polishers and really trying to figure everything out. So my first sale was the end of 2012. You know, was that five years, I guess we've been in business for it took me about two years of honestly, r&d and trying to figure out what I was doing. Because I again, I was clueless, I literally googled, you know how to manufacture, how to start a company, things like that. So we've definitely grown nicely in the last couple years. But it's really been, I guess, about five years I've been in business
Justin Trosclair 8:49
now heard with a lot of entrepreneurs, that when you start out by yourself, you try to do everything, and then eventually you just can't and you have to hire somebody, and then you realize, oh my gosh, that was the best decision ever made. How did you do that without a without a hard process to get through? When he when he talked about the sales process and distribution and all that kind of stuff? Like What Did you determine like, I need to hire more people? How did that? How did that play out?
Yeah, it's it's it's an excellent question. And it's kind of a company's a little bit unique in the sense that a good friend of mine and a good friend of Mark, his name is Sean McNeil. He was my roommate in college. And, you know, we're good friends, and we lived about five minutes away from each other, I needed someone to kind of help me and he actually worked from his house. So he kind of was a, I guess, an unpaid employee of mine for about six months. Just because, you know, again, I was trying to figure everything out. So Sean, has been a very integral part of the the evolution of the company, it's hard to describe again, because I never really had employees before. And if you have a great employee, you know, you want to do everything you possibly can to keep him I actually learned something from the guy that works with, with Mark Butler at NOVA care, his name is Alan Evans. And he he gave me some good advice a couple years years ago, when I was just talking to him about some some employees that were giving us a hard time. And he basically said, you know, you want to higher slowly, and fire quickly. And I could not agree more with him. If you if you find employees that you know, you're you're starting to talk about a little bit more, they're really just starting to be a negative, you really have to, you know, you want to see you want to work with them and see, you know, they can turn it around. But if things aren't working, you really it's better to just cut them loose and get someone else in there, that will be a better fit.
Justin Trosclair 10:29
Do you have like a 60 day probation period, certain benchmarks that you're looking for, as far as like sales
or no, we're, again, we're we're definitely evolving. Because we have a we have a great work environment, it is relatively relaxed, you know, we give our employees a lot of latitude, again, because if they're good, we want to, we want to keep them happy. And if you give some employees some flexibility, you know, that's that, you know that, that that's a good thing. It earned some loyalty. But what we've also found two is, you know, there is a reason to have an HR department and why to have an employee handbook, and why to make sure if they aren't doing something that they should have done. You know, unfortunately, you have to document it. Because you know, if you don't, it could come back to bite you in the butt. So it's a it's something it's a balance, I guess you won't have to say because again, you want to have a good work environment. But at the same point, you have to protect yourself. It's I don't say it's been a struggle, but I did not get in business into business. I'm an entrepreneur, you know, I love the the figuring it out the process, the excitement, things like that, the day to day part of running a business that doesn't excite me. But that's something that you have to be aware of as as you know, and as Mark knows, as well. Absolutely.
Justin Trosclair 11:40
Well, I'm curious, you mentioned that your competitor, I've taken some of their seminars kind of in China, so been thinking different kinds of seminars lately. But walk us through how did you go through the process of developing a course work? Because I'm guessing everything see, so that doctors can take the classes and get the hours for the state and be allowed to practice?
Was that a hard time process?
Justin Trosclair 12:00
Did you have to how did you go about figuring out how to teach this process?
Yeah, it's a certification program. Sarna, you know what, when I started the company, I literally, I didn't realize the value of the education I was I was wrong completely. All I wanted to do was make the best instruments, tools, whatever you want to call them on the market, basically make them better than then grass and which was kind of the goal. Here's an alternative the gold standard, probably for about 15 years or so. So we put together an instructional video and a manual, buddy of mine is chiropractor who have been to a bunch of the different technique courses from our competitors, you know, I literally I would just tell people, hey, if you're interested, just go just go to a grassland course and then just by our instruments. But then what happened was the biggest rehab company in the world that that mark actually works with and he's an educator is one of the top educators for them, they were spending a ton of money to send their clinicians to the grass done in the a STEM courses. And knowing that they had their own education to apartment, which is actually run by that fella, Alan Evans, I told you about, you know, I explained to them that, you know, rather than you guys spend so much money, sending these people to these different certification courses, I said, you guys can develop your own courses, you can tailor it to the needs of your physical therapists, your athletic trainers are OTS, the different people that work there. And another benefit is, you know, when you go to the different competitors, and even to some of our courses, you may be getting taught by a chiropractor and athletic trainer, a physical therapist, you know, we have excellent instructors, but you know, like any, any anything else, some of our instructors are better than others. And I told I basically said to Alan, you know, you can pick the instructors, because you know, you know, the people that work for you, you can you can decide which ones you want to teach this modality and you guys can actually develop your own curriculum. So that is consistent across the thousands of clinicians that work for Nova care. That's kind of how I was introduced to mark because really don't know, I'm not a clinical guy, Mark has developed, you know, probably for 2030 years education courses. So Mark actually is the one who developed not even for Hawk grips, it was for SELECT Medical, to teach their own accredited instrument assisted soft tissue mobilization. And that's kind of how long and I got to know each other. Now after that happens, and we learned a little bit and we really understood the benefits and how you can actually learn, there's a lot more to it than rubbing a piece of metal across the armor the back again, I'll be the first person to admit that I did not appreciate some of the techniques that are involved. And it's kind of like a golf club or a tennis you could have, you know, Raphael, Nate all, who's an unbelievable tennis player. But if he's using a tennis racket from the 1880s, you know, he's not maximizing his potential. So you know, you need the instruments, but you also need to understand and they kind of go hand in hand. Fortunately, we built a lot of good relationships. And even with some of the former industry doctors progressed, and who kind of were the pioneers been teaching this for, I don't know, 10 or 15 years, we have a handful of former grass and technique instructors that came to us, because they were interested in teaching for us as well. So we've done we do more courses than any of our competitors. Now, we've done courses at the White House, Walter Reed with the Delta Force with the Yankees, the Mayo Clinic, the Cleveland Clinic, a couple of them, Johns Hopkins, they see so much value in it, that six months later, they'll do another course, I don't want to talk to too long. But one of the the other differences between us and our competitors are, we don't tell the director of rehab at the Cleveland Clinic, you have to go through our program, you have to do this, your clinicians have to do this, you know, they're busy, they have to deal with insurance companies, they have to deal with referring doctors, they have to deal with patients. So the easier that we are to work with them, you know, they see value in that versus giving them certain kind of restrictions. Because, you know, when it comes down to it, yeah, you know, we're a manufacturer, we're we're salespeople, we have education, but the easier we are to work with, and the less aggravation, you know, that we can give to our our customers who you know, a lot of them are good friends of ours, the more value that they say in us, and I think that's just something another thing that separates us from, you know, the competitors out
Justin Trosclair 16:19
there. When I know for myself personally, why would you want to waste your thumbs when you can just spend a few extra minutes I mean, less time actually using some tools it works. And what's I don't know if you guys are always saying us close, but in to me like in the real world, I would go through the clothes, they will still get the same results. You just kind of peek. Okay, I got some funky, I bought time to quit. Let's move on to the next spot. And then a couple years later, I've heard they're they're now saying it's okay, you can kind of go to close sometimes. And I was like, Well, I think
that's because we were doing it anyway. And I'm still getting great results. You just can't strip everybody down versus time and desire. But maybe that's just me.
Yeah, you know what, then, and I think Mark can speak better to this. But instrument assisted it works. It's still I think up for debate exactly how it works or why it works. There really isn't too much. I mean, there's lots of case studies and there's some studies on rat tendons. And again, Mark Mark's better at this than I am but a lot of it we are still figuring it out. And if someone says at least my opinion if someone says this is how you have to do it and you cannot do this and it works x y&z i think i think their fullest actually because again, I don't know, again, I think that's a better question for Mark. But it doesn't work for every condition. It doesn't maybe work for every patient. But you know, it's miraculous. It's it's amazing the effects that it had on me, but also for a lot of the other patients that are out there. Otherwise, it wouldn't, it wouldn't be so popular. If it didn't work.
Justin Trosclair 17:44
Well, I'll say this I've had and seen the shot here. And sometimes they use like a buffalo horn and I can get down with that. That's all right. But I've seen on some videos, they're using like a Campbell Soup edge, that is not what you should use, I'm looking at it, I'm just like, oh, there is no way that is not good for anybody that's that's just going to call some damage. Here's
another fair to and this gets into kind of health care in general, physical therapists, you know, I think most of them now they have to become a dp to a Doctor of Physical Therapy. And one of the things that I say again, because we take a lot of pride at Hawk reps, and everything that we do, now that patients they're not paying $5 copay. So you know, a lot of times patients are paying 3040 $50
co pays. And if you're a doctor, and you're using, you know, the back of a suit can or if you're using a $2 buffalo horn, you know, and and a patient sees that, you know, maybe you're driving a really nice car, they say, why are you using, you know, a $2 piece of metal on me, though, is that really what a doctor should be doing? So there's that part as well. There's the branding, it's, you know, give patients are, they're always judging, they're judging. Is this a nice clinic? Do they have modern equipment? Is the receptionist nice? Do they do they cut the lawn, things are getting a lot more competitive out there, you know, chiropractors to physical therapists, Massage Envy, things like that. And, you know, I think that's one thing, I think chiropractors generally are a little bit better, at least in the United States, about not only about marketing themselves, because it is competitive out there. And you know, when they see Hawk reps, we supply them with a lot of marketing materials. But when they can go to their patients, and say, the head athletic trainer for the New York Yankees uses Hawk reps, you know, the physical therapist for the White House uses Hawk reps, the top hospitals in the world use Hawk reps, well, then I think that sometimes can raise your patients that, hey, you know what, you know, my physical therapist or my chiropractor, they're using the best out there. They're not they're not trying to cut corners and save a couple bucks. So that's just another thing I try and get across to, to our customers is, hey, you're using the best product out there? You know, once you brag about it a little bit,
Justin Trosclair 19:48
I got to quit two more questions for you. And then we'll maybe we'll switch over to answer he, Why do you have so many handlebar styles? And then what type of marketing? Are you doing? What are you finding this pretty successful? Sure, there's a lot to be a more question to them.
That's okay. And one of the reasons that we have so many instruments and people say, Well, you know, we did, we did come out with a multi purpose tool. And the main reason we did that number one, for traveling, you know, maybe an athletic trainer, they don't want to log, you know, 789 10 tools with them. And I completely understand. So you know, so we do have a multi tool instrument that's very versatile. But when you think about it, again, I like the analogy of a golf club. When tiger woods or you know, Phil Mickelson, they're going golfing, could they get away with one club? And you know, play 18 holes? Of course they could. But would they be maximizing it? Would they be playing to the best of their ability? Of course not. I think the analogy is appropriate with with Hawk reps, because, again, if you think about it, we're using our instruments at children's hospitals. Were using them with the Green Bay Packers, you know you so you could be looking at a 30 pound person or 350 pound person. Zuma wrestlers, bariatric patients, ballet dancers, people come in all shapes and sizes. And not only people in general, but if you're working between someone's toes, or on their ankle, or on their back, or their shoulders, at least I feel that you want to get the most precise treatment out there. Right, the square footage
Justin Trosclair 21:17
the square inches, but you have to cover
exactly you want to be efficient, you know, and again, Mark Mark can speak to that a little bit better than I can. But we don't force people to buy all of our instruments. If you want to buy one, one tool, one instrument, go ahead and buy it. If you fight if your hand therapist, you may not need a big handlebar because you're not dealing with hamstrings are parts of the back. So that's why another reason that we have you know, we have different sets, we have large sets, we have small sets, you can customize your set. Because again, as much as we'd like to sell as many instruments as possible, we we want people to use them, we don't want them, you know, collecting dust. So basically by what you want, you know, and if you feel you need another one, or you have more of a budget, you you know, then you pick up an extra handlebar. But again, we don't we don't force people. As far as marketing, we don't spend a lot of money on marketing, what we do is we really take, we take great care of our customers. And again, it's a point of pride for me. But our customers are our best salespeople, because it's really word of mouth. Mark has introduced me to probably dozens of people throughout the country. And you multiply that by all the different advocates that we have, again, because a lot of people if you go on the website, you don't appreciate the differences, because again, they just see a piece of metal, you don't really appreciate the craftsmanship, you don't appreciate, you know how these are hand polished, how we have we have we check the angles, we check literally every bevel that comes out of there. But again, I have some credibility, but customers that are using our instruments every day, they have the credibility because they're talking to their colleagues. And again, that's something that if we take care of our customers, then they're going to take care of us. And that's really through word of mouth. So yeah, we'll do some advertising. We just hired a new media content coordinator, you know, to get our story out a little bit better. But I'm a big fan of again, just take good care of your customers, and then the word of mouth thing as much as the internet's exploded. And obviously, we're talking to you on a podcast or China, good old fashioned word of mouth is kind of you know, what, what I'm focused on?
Justin Trosclair 23:17
Yeah, I mean, I saw your side, I saw the tools, they looked really impressive as far as when you're offering and I am curious, this might be your question, because you actually designed them. How did you figure out like the bevel part like the actual angle, trial and error or like best practices, there's research studies out there, what
is this carefully what happened was, I made the same mistake, pretty much everyone that's tried to come come after grasping. At first I was just focused on grip, because I would see people using the grass and tools and they were slipping out of their hands. So when I decided to start the company, I went literally to grasp and clinicians, and it was mostly chiropractors, some physical therapist and said, Hey, and again, the only reason I did this was I, you know, the the grass and people I think, just try and knock them off. Because I saw an opportunity, they really treated me not well, at all a couple times, you know, and as I said, I would have been a big advocate for them. But so they just treated me pretty terribly. I decided, you know what, you know, I'm going to start my own company, I'm going to make a better product, and I'm going to treat our customers Great. So I went to people that use their tools, because no one really cares what I think when it comes down to it. It's the people that are using the instruments. So I went to the people that were using the grass and instruments and said, hey, what what do you like, What don't you like, and they really, they liked the angles and the levels of the grass. And they just didn't like the the fact that they were so slippery, you know, some of the restrictions with the contracts that you had to sign, things like that. So I went to an engineer, and I just said, Hey, we need to make tools that have better grips. And so that's all I was focused on. And I didn't really pay attention to the devils in the angles and things like that. So I was take them out to the different clinicians. And they said, Well, you know, we like the grips. But you know, it's real, just like the back of a reflex hammer. And I couldn't understand why the grass and tools were so much better than you know some of the other knuckles that out there. And so what I did was I actually brought our engineer has things Mark Purcell, and he knows Mark Butler as well. And I brought him to Philadelphia, and I put them in touch with some of these physical therapists and chiropractors that we're using Gaston. And he literally went tool by tool and explained, you know, why these bubbles were there and what they did and the angles and the sharpness or the, you know, in many in many ways, Dave grassed and 20 years ago, he nailed it in my opinion, with a certain levels and the angles, what the grass and company did not do, you know, to our benefit is they never really evolved. They you know, we're constantly evolving, coming out with new instruments, updating our tooling, our molds, things like that. And they kind of just stuck with, you know, the same technology that they had 20 years earlier. Now, it's probably 25 years they've been in on, you know, they've been in business, people complained about the slippery ness, they never improved it. So as far as the angle in the bubbles and things like that, I think they did a great job. So in many ways, we just we copied it, you know, I don't know what a better word for copy is we basically copied what worked for grass, then, because if it works, why change it, you know, we just had improved added exercises, and again, made them much more ergonomic and we just made the business working with our company, we just wanted to make it a lot easier than it was working, you know, obviously with with our competitors,
Justin Trosclair 26:23
one more for you five years from now, what's your goal? How do you know if it's a goal worth the company pursuing?
What we've done in the last couple years is actually in probably the last year or so we hired a new director of international so she's gotten us into about 15 or 20 countries. So what I would like to do, again, if it works on tennis elbow or a bad back here, it's going to work on tennis elbow in Europe or Africa. One of the things and it just digressing a little bit, one of our instructors, Ken Johnson, who's the Director of outpatient rehab at Johns Hopkins, he was on a mission over in Africa. And you know, healthcare obviously is not, you know, the same as it is there. And he was actually working on some, some people poor village. And he took some pictures as to you know, the just the benefits, the pain relief some of these people had. So as much as I love the business part of it. And you know, yeah, we'd like to get into 5060 countries continually evolve, we just came out with a new product, it will be launching in about a month called Hawk hydro, it's a water based ammonia. And that works very similar to our oil based on volume. But if you want to put electrodes or kinesiology tape on afterwards, you don't have that frustration of you know, you haven't used the water alcohol, we will continue to evolve, make, you know, improve on our instruments come out with other products. But I don't want to just come up with me to products, I see no excitement and that there's already 50 kinesiology tapes, we're not going to make another tape, I will only make products that are better than anything else that's out there on the rehab market or something unique, which is kind of our new Hawk hydro. So be honest with you, I don't have a five year plan, we're just going to continue to evolve, take really good care of our customers. And whatever happens here happens. I don't know what you've done China yet.
Justin Trosclair 28:01
But they already are using, like, gosh, Ah, that's pretty much Sure. I always called it like that kind of the instrument assisted mobilization. every hospital has a acupuncture department where they can do massage and do the Gosh, ah, they got every little, you know, every massage therapist has that as a service. But I do know that I think China makes you keep hefty chunk of cash in China to be able to do business legally. So something like that. Yeah,
no, you know,
so we're talking to some distributors in Singapore and Hong Kong. Obviously, China is a huge market. So, you know, hey, maybe after the podcast, I'll put you in touch with our Director of international maybe we can see if you can help us get into that market
Justin Trosclair 28:39
win win. Justin, you know that so? Yeah, but I listen, I I appreciate the questions. You know, it has been a labor of love when I look back, and kind of how is an idea in my head and where we are now. You know, it's great. But again, more so than getting all these countries, we've developed so many good relationships, obviously, Mark now, like, you know, I did not know who he was four years ago is a great friend of mine now. So it's just amazing. We, you know, not only the Yankees and and all the big names, it's fun to hang out the Dodgers and their medical staff and things like that. But even just the, you know, the mom and pop physical therapist or the chiropractor, you know, we've just made so many good friendships over the years throughout throughout the country. And probably, that's when I look back on things, that's probably what I'm most proud of, is just the relationships that we've developed in the friendships we've developed over the last couple years. Mark Butler, are you ready?
Justin Trosclair 29:33
Yes, I am. Okay, I've been using these two different tools and help this lady she had a C section scar. And she's like, every time I go through my period every month, it just hurts. Yeah, you just do a little scar work been cleared it right up within maybe four or five visits, and just just the power of the tools. It's amazing to me, so if you could give us the semi short, but you know, the appropriate length, if you will, about some of the signs that shows how how does it work? Why does it work? What's the proof that it works? for the viewers?
Well as as Frank mentioned, the the science behind what we're doing is based on animal studies, physiology, knowledge of self physiology, and the greatest. The starting point with this was, we were thinking we were just changing and breaking down scar tissue, right? And that that's the earliest phase, we got a lot of mileage out of that, because we really learned the healing process. And we learned how it's much more dynamic than just just changing connective tissue tension. It's, it's it's a lot more dynamic than that. So we think about pain and discomfort and movement dysfunction. My role in my my area in in rethinking this has been geared more toward how the neural muscular interaction happens, what happens and how we have discomfort and pain. And can we change that quickly. And there's, if we fast forward to really updated thought process, the term that we would use will be a term called mechanical transduction is where we actually create a cellular response when we stress or share the cell in the body and all the all the way from the mechanics of of creating training on the nucleus to actually produce a different type of collagen for long term healing process and make that college and more organized and, and more effective at creating a healing process to on the other end of the spectrum, engaging the nervous system and its role in healing and pain control. And there's some fascinating studies showing that the basic peptides of pain are actually mechanical sensitive, they respond to stress and cheering, we can change the concentration and the way that these peptides interact in the tissue. And we can actually up up ramp or upgrade the healing response. And we can interrupt the gnosis up different pain signals are signals come from the body, the brain perceives is painful. And we can we can have an effect on that. So and so we're doing a treatment on I'm sorry,
Justin Trosclair 31:55
I'll say on that they used to say, you know, when you get scarred a sprained ankle, it's going to heal with look like a bowl of spaghetti. But when you doing these facile tool instruments, is going to lay it down more like a plaid, like a plaid shirt. So they're actually showing me that actually is actually occurring. It's not just the theory now,
yep, the animal studies showing an acute injury where if we don't treat that tissue or share it, it definitely heels in a much more disorganized fashion, creating a stressor sharing the tissue does create a better substrate, or Matt of scar tissue that is actually functional. The analogy I give here now using my instruction is if you take a cotton ball, and run all the continents in the cotton ball, and you put that into a tension in situation, the cotton ball, just pull apart, take that same amount of cotton, and you and you stress it and you You call that you organize it so it becomes a thread and you get a whole bunch of those threads put together and now you've got a rope, that rope could lift a car. So when we share the tissue, that seems to be the case, we reorganize our realign the collagen fibers, we actually create the fiber blast to we stimulate it to to put out a better quality of college and fiber. And, and that that definitely interacts the link process to where we get a good solid repair. But it
Justin Trosclair 33:07
still won't be as good as original.
Yeah, well, it's not as good as the original is
Justin Trosclair 33:11
better than the junk that would normally definitely
much better what you would have. And then when you add that also the nervous systems can contribution to pain and the change the way that we move when we're in pain, we can take that away movement normalizes to have a normalization of movement, normalization of the tissue healing response, an upgrade it and we get a much more rapid return to function. Now in Frank's in Frank story where he quickly gained motion when he was treated. That was a neuromuscular response, he didn't get an immediate reorganization of the scar tissue, but he was locked down and it built move because of pain. And that's the immediate first response we see with he's using these these instruments Is it the patients immediately start to normalize removing, if they're not moving well enough or the tissues to type it gets it to relax it the tissues hyper facilitated, it actually calms it down. So we quickly bring tissue to a norm. If it's hyper facilitated, it becomes less hypo facility hyper facilitated, if it's hypo facilitated, or the patient can't find that muscle to turn it on, they quickly regain the ability to find that muscle again. So it's pretty exciting. You know, we can take this in a static treatment, or we can have the patient actually moving while we're treating them and actually accelerate their their movement and improve it right there in the clinic immediately upon treatment. When you're ducking clinical,
Justin Trosclair 34:27
do you suggest to try to get them into that active? What did y'all call it scraping and you're telling me you know, the thing
is, there's really no standardized terminology for what we're doing. I think that all the all the courses and all the instructors that are working in this area have some common terminology. We sweep we fan we brush we stroke we filet
Justin Trosclair 34:48
Yeah, when your family Do you find that? Even like let's say an acute car accident? Sure you got an X ray, there's no you know, fractures or anything and they come in and they're and they're really stiff. Is it better to get them moving and failing? At the same time? I'm ready need to start out kind of more later? That's a
great question. The analogy I would give us is think of think of, if you have a garden in the backyard, and it's it's all winter long, this was all compacted and rough. And I want to get out early spring and start to get ready to plant some seeds. I'm not getting it out there with and bury the rake up to the bottom of the times and trying to break through it because it's not going to move. So I'm gonna start up gently, maybe at skin level, and your skin is so rich and neural structures that I can bombard those neural structures, switch them all on flood the brain with really, really good feedback, I can work down into the fashion layer just below the skin, get down into the, into the muscular tissue layer by layer, and then start to prepare the surface, get it working well. And then and then when I want to get the patient moving, I can ask them to start moving, that even adds another layer of enhancement to the outcome of treatment. So we usually start with a patient fairly static and a comfortable position. And then once we've got that pain process interrupted, then we can start to get them moving. And we get much more better perfect. So that's a very quick overview of the thought process of how we treat the patients. And he talked about fanning, there's a soul such a variety of different strokes you can use to to create this process. And that's where the whole education process comes in. We have we have a variety of courses that that I've been at the ground level that that designing and putting together the go all the way from an introductory level to giving the motor skills using the tools to actually dealing with some very interesting tissue scenarios. My area of expertise is usually the nervous system and neuro mobilization. And then I have colleagues have expertise in the mile fascia, we have colleagues that are experts in you know, in dealing with neurological patients that have high tone, and in pediatrics, and we're all working together to create a unique basically menu of courses that would satisfy any clinicians needs for clinical practice. So when you ask about how we do this, it's a you're putting your toe until a bit of a rabbit hole, you can go down a lot different pathways here. So that's what we're doing that that makes us very unique. We're not just going to on somebody's hands and say, Hey, scrape the tissue. And that's it. We're trying to take you from the start to whatever you really want matches Frank's vision of creating a system that's really based on the client's needs, not on our thoughts only. And it's exciting to be working with the company and company like this is the
Justin Trosclair 37:17
I've done some Phoenicia taping from the official cast guy. And that's kind of what they did. It wasn't just here, he put some tape on it was actual practical application so that when you leave, you're not having to figure out now what do I do what a shoulder injury again, it's like, you know, I've got three protocols that I can try. And then once I get familiar, I can learn with my clinical experience on how to alter these, let me
build on that real quickly give you a bit of background and how Franklin up together, I actually ended up being asked by the grass and company to to work with them. On the education side, while I was attending the course to learn instrument assisted soft tissue work again, I found the experience of working with him not meeting my expectations. And I was also an educator on much many, many levels. So I'm not exclusively with anybody. And when Frank and I met, actually, at a conference where I was teaching, I knew I was onto something big and different. So when we discuss the idea of putting together a course and using his tools, my idea of how to teach a course was not here's a shoulder and here's how you rub it, it was here's a problem, clinical problem. And here's how you can solve using tools. And that's how when we put together the course when I have a colleague, he's in Austin, Texas name is Andreas Mueller, he and I, when we designed the courses together, that was our primary starting point is going to be a problem solving course not a a technique course it's it's how do you solve problems with these tools? And that that made it unique, right from the very beginning. And, and it's caught fires Frank mentioned in the courses can be taught what, probably 200 times this year somewhere, you know, I've been at the ground floor again of designing and does these courses together. And it's a very organic, very exciting process.
Justin Trosclair 38:56
I tried to look online but my internet when, okay, open that page very well. It was talking about doing the clinicians and being in like an instructor. And is it kinda like a glass, a grassroots type of process? Like you've been to some classes, you're certified, and now you're like, man, there's just nobody else teaching it in my area. But I know people could do it. And you just kind of sign up like, what is that a process? How does that work?
Well, we've been very fortunate in some very, very well known and well respected educators in in complementary areas with the instrument work when they heard what we were doing here. And through the connections of Frank, and the individual he's worked with in touch base with these people are approaching us and saying, Hey, I'm really seeing what you're doing. And then we end up talking together in through introductions, and, you know, we bring them on in that process of, well, we're all kind of working together. But we're not it's not lockstep protocol, you have to do it a certain way. We want my firm belief in if you lock into a protocol, that you have to do it a certain way, there's no room for growth, so everybody contributes to the process.
Justin Trosclair 39:56
And that's what so many doctors want to like, Don't make me think
exactly, actually, this is really, it's kind of exciting, though, and that the people that want to think Yeah, like that, and we encourage it. And we encourage that with the people that come to us and want to work with us to teach. So we all work together, we want to make sure that the message is pretty consistent, but we allow you to, to really grow it and add your expertise to the basic components of the course. So exciting. It's a very, very fun place to be when you are really into the you know, the excitement of teaching something new and exciting and watch it grow with each time It's time. Now I'm a copywriter.
Justin Trosclair 40:31
So I'm gonna have to ask this your doctor physical therapy, sure, you guys can go off on all sorts of tangents as far as what you want to specialize in, obviously, but we're going to manipulate all day, whether it's an instrument, whether it's by hand, you guys are getting trained in it, but you may not choose to like learn it very well because like I don't like it, I don't want to do it. I'm just do other stuff. So if you don't like it, that's that's another question. But some of the neurology stuff you're talking about. And what I've learned trying to with the spinal manipulation is a very similar, you know, you're talking about the muscles, and we're like, yeah, it's kind of the same way. But like in the preset joints, it's it's sharing, turning things on turning things off, it's actually processing neurologically that that's more possibly what's actually happening as a neurological reset, then really making a bone move, you know,
exactly, you actually just touch on an area where I, in my own path of of trying to figure out how to help people get better, you know, just like you mentioned, the thought process of moving a joint a moving attending, I'm working on muscle, I'm the thing that connects to all together as a neurology of it, the I just kept getting lead back to this place over and over again, the neurological reset the placebo effect. You know, there's some fascinating studies where people bilateral injuries, get one side treated, and both sides are the same, right? We know that the only tissue that connects it all together is your brain and your nervous system. And we talked about the placebo effect, and sort of its kind of this mysterious, you know, we really don't think much about it. But it's the most powerful healing process around. So if I can get your nervous system and your brain involved in the process, you're going to get better. There's a lot of us out there that are, you know, like where the where the blindfolded experts with the elephant and we're all feeling elephant, we kind of get locked into our area of hates because of this, but like a step back a little thing. And I embrace anybody who's out there trying to heal and their thoughts and their problem. And as long as he would get a grand unifying theory to put us all together, like we get to that we look at the very top of it, it's got to be the nervous system, and the way that you move in the way that your body interacts with your teacher communicates to other tissue etc. And that circles back to again, having a an instrument or tool that makes me so much more efficient than my hands alone can be Yeah, it's absolutely invaluable. It's game changing.
Justin Trosclair 42:38
It's pretty good question I can think of this patient that I have right now. And he's had a stroke several years the guys actually trying like he's walking with a cane and he's he's coming in and get back pain with this inflection distraction, we're adjusting they're doing acupuncture all this stuff is back things better. And I'm trying to show them some ways to get better mobility his arm, otherwise, you're gonna get frozen shoulder, you got to use it and it's, you know, lay sharper and bottom up lower. What would an instrument soft tissue manipulation? Would that be something that could help stimulate more brain activity on the help them improve quicker? Have y'all seen anything like that? any case studies?
Yeah, there's actually one case study published not too long ago was actually from out of Korea. And it was one case study where they looked at an individual fairly younger, a younger individual who ended up with a, some spasticity in his lower lower limb. He was in planner reflection, fixed kind of a spastic, guess what truly is complex. So what they did is they went and they treated the spastic muscle and with the instruments, and they showed immediately following that the tone of the spastic muscle was inhibited significantly. And the actual activity of the early antagonistic muscle group, the Dorsey flexors, the antibiotics, etc, had a higher em gee activity. So what you have is you have, you're going back to that that neurological response, we know that if one muscles in spasm, the antagonist is actually inhibited. So the cool thing that we're seeing, and again, talking about normalizing effect, the tools seem to normalize tissue, if it's hyper tonic, it brings it to a lower level of activity. And then the antagonistic muscle groups actually now no longer inhibited, and they can now turn on better. So in these in these case studies, and unfortunately, we don't have anything from this article that gives us the carryover effect is I would imagine that somebody can have to expand with clinically, and we're seeing this if we work with this. And we can take a patient immediately following we improve their movement by a factor of 10 or 100, for a brief period of time, maybe longer, maybe shorter. And we can create a point where remove the barrier to movement and let the patient move, we flood their brain with information of what it's like to move. Normally, you start to rewire the whole system, you lay down new neurons, you do that over and over again. And now that patient that can't walk or move is starting to move, it creates a snowball effect. So this is exciting. These are the areas that we're working on with the tools that no one else has been working with a whole lot. I mean, people around them, little bits and pieces, but we're we're trying to bring it all together and integrate it and bring us into courses and teach people how to do this stuff I don't personally experienced with
Justin Trosclair 45:07
with Ms. And I'm telling you like the spasticity, they can actually move their leg better, they can walk better. Yeah. And depending on where the red, you know, maybe it last a week or two, and then they have to come back. But they're okay with that. Because they're walking is more important in the fee that we have to charge in the inconvenience of coming in every week. But they're just like, yeah, the meds are starting to not work. But this is helping me so if I can come in once a week, once every other week. I'm gonna keep doing this until it stops working. And it does work. Yeah, but that's just me What a few patients that I know of, but
know, Justin, you're hitting the nail on the head. And, you know, I've been I've been a physical therapist, just just I have 30 years, I had my own practice, I the whole time. You know, I've been successful on many levels. But the thing that really makes me get up in the morning is the fact that I can change people's lives. I couldn't even tell you how much I earned last year because I don't think about that I think about it's changing people's lives. And and if I change it for an hour, if I change it for three days is still tremendously rewarding. So you know what you're mentioning with your MS patients things like that these people they are craving someone that can make a difference in their lives and it's very rewarding to have that opportunity and test something that makes my job much more effective. I can't put a price I can't put a value on that I'd spend thousands of dollars in order to make a difference and that's what's all about
Justin Trosclair 46:23
what would you say this we get a lot of clients it seems like lately they fell off their scooters they got hit they you know whatever and they're getting Clinton their legs for you know different surgeries. That Frank you probably had the same situation with your with your whiplash injuries are your snow skiing is very sorry, do you find that working maybe after his heel, you know, officially, everything's healed ready to go that it helps them improve if they can't get to like really good physical therapist and get the motions. That's what I'm finding here is they're not getting that hardcore are going to make it you're gonna cry a little bit but either cry now or you're not going to walk in 10 years are you going to have this this limp you got now it's only going to get worse? Do you guys find the instrument mobilization gets them to that next level of movement and quicker if maybe that's the only option that they have, like, that'd be something worthwhile?
Well, that the population you're talking about with those, those tough orthopedic injuries, where they've been left for a while to really develop hard movement dysfunctions that are not getting better, or you're you're banging your head against the wall, trying to get them to move better in the clinic. When we when we first start using the tools on or the instruments on those types of patients. The results were so, so dramatic and with a lot less discomfort than you would expect if if done in a way that that's appropriate. And well, it's game. It's been game changing. We take patients that we were not able to progress or get a moving. The first case that comes to mind and in my experience, I'd have a young entrepreneur himself, he had had severe jet ski accident out of the country. While they were trying to keep it alive. They basically just threw him in a bed, he had a tremendous, terrible injury to his knees. Blue per quarter was patella way. Basically, he sold him up, his name was left straight for three months, and you finally made it home he shows up in my clinic, you can like Ben is nice about 25 degrees is one me after about a work week of treatment, he was bending up to him, he got 227 degrees and reflection in a week worth of work with us that would have taken me in the past months and months and months. This guy was so excited. He pulled out a video camera and videotape me treating him he was he was blown away by it. So we saw this happening over and over and over again. And unfortunately now I'm just talking to Frank beforehand, before we got on, I'm so used to this now I expect it when I first started see it it was it was game changing. Now I just like if it doesn't happen, I'm surprised. You know, that's my new norm, I expect quick recovering and quick results. And I'm getting them and you know, people are coming to find us because we're getting these results. Word of mouth has been very, very, you know, very, very intense on this area.
Justin Trosclair 48:51
I got a question then. Because I think we do the same thing. We you get patients better you expected, you get that one or two people out of you know, 50 that don't get better. And you're like beat your head against the wall, you feel bad about yourself, and you start to almost lose value, the value that you actually have in yourself and why you're they're coming to see you what I don't know if you can answer this question legally. But the cost, you know, what kind of prices are we allowed to charge for a service like this is $100 a visit kind of crazy is 32 cheap. I mean, what's what's a ballpark range. So it's a compensation wise mean a business as well. I know,
I know how much it costs me to render a treatment. And also when it comes to third party payers are pairs that are that are eventually sending us a check for we do. So when all the mathematics and all the discounts and all the different things come to be we we we probably get a few dollars more reimbursement and what it actually costs us to render care. And that rendering care is keeping the lights on paying my staff paying myself you know, money going to the people that employ me, when that's all said and done, you know, about $8 goes upstream so that you you know, without going into the actual dollar amounts of what what what happens. So when people walk in, and they they they get treated and they get that that bill, there can be some sticker shock, but it's not it's not cheap to render care, you better believe that
Justin Trosclair 50:12
it is a chargeable procedures not like
you have to Well, this this actual procedure we build, we built different things, we can build lingo manual therapy, which has a fee schedule, which is universally applied around around the country in the United States. And this is the other key we bill is neuromuscular Riyadh, if we're doing the treatment with ordering movement or to enhance movement, we can build that a little bit of a better charge than manual therapy alone. But there's more skill involved with that. So those are the two main charges that are rendered here,
Justin Trosclair 50:44
when everybody knows what you get reimbursed for that.
So you just pay a price, right? Yeah, we all know what we get. When we get that check in the mail. itemizing it, we know what we're getting now. Okay, hopefully,
we can tools aren't cheap, you know, solid price, but you got to look at your return on investment, you know, everybody's been in business for something that that's the most expensive piece of equipment is the one that's in the closet, because you just don't know how to use it and don't want to use it or to reimbursement went out the window, you're like, not doing this for $2. Right? You know,
right? Well, you hit the nail on the head there. I mean, it's there's a lot of pieces of equipment that and have been in facilities that they might be the hottest needed saying, but you realize it's just not efficient, and you don't get the results that you want, people will continue to pick up and use what gives results, we do a lot of tests treat retest, so we immediately get feedback, we're making a change. And we never got that with an ultrasound machine or a you know, something like that we we did this with the tool with the instruments, immediate results. So for about the same price of a really nice ultrasound machine or something like that, you can have a whole set of tools, and patients are being referred to my office because I have these instruments in my clinic, not because I have XYZ ultrasound machine or Easton machine, where the return on on on investment is phenomenal. And then on the other end, the cost haven't been involved directly with Frank in some of the design of the tools and knowing what it goes through to produce one tool, multiple prototypes, high cost levels, each of these tools are are hand finished, they're not just afford stamp piece of metal that that are mass produced, everyone has touched many, many times by very skilled hands. So by the time this tool gets into your clinic, you're dealing with a very, very highly designed, highly polished treated piece of equipment that yeah, definitely, it's um, so there's a lot of costs involved in him. So
Justin Trosclair 52:28
again, I'm not knocking the price is there with the money?
Or you get what you get what you pay for, you really do there's some, like you said, start with one if you need to, you can only afford one, you can buy one that's the most effective. And there's an infinite number of tools on the market, but you truly get what you pay for. And I have to let people know that You bet.
Justin Trosclair 52:44
Well, two questions that well, if somebody could only buy one tool, which one do you think what which ones do they buy?
When Frank and I started work together? The first thing that I did when I saw him, as I said, well, you need this this list under the terms I wasn't shy about giving them information. And we had a very early meeting with with Frank, myself and a couple of clinicians and the guy who makes the tools. And I said, I said to Frank, you know what people want a tool that kind of does everything. And I'm sure Frank have been thinking about this as well. This is actually one of our prototypes, oh my god, this number 14. And this was actually I do this on the back of a napkin, we were out to dinner or something like it. And we kept working with it. This actually is it's for tools in one, I can use that on so many body parts, every single edge of it, I have we have this in metal, I don't have that here at my in front of the computer. Right now. This is the 14th prototype in plastic that we use in my clinic for many, many, many months, almost a year worth of different tools that if you if you could only afford one tool, I would get that. And then what's it called, it's called the HD Pro. And also I would probably my next wish list, I would add handlebars to it. So we can take something like that. And as Frank mentioned, that could be in the back pocket and athletic trainer, I walk around with this tool in my back pocket all day long. And I'm using many tools. But there's I have I have five clinicians in my clinic were all fighting these tools. And ironically, we have a set of grass and tools. They said they didn't get dust on them. We have it set of SAS them tools, they didn't get dust on them. Everybody fights for the hot groups because they feel the best in your hand. How do you clean them any hard surface cleaner disinfectant? Anything from alcohol to what we do is we just open water we can use, we don't want to leave a chemical cleaning solution on the tool because that can irritate the skin. So if it is infected with that will follow up with maybe hand sanitizer, ethyl alcohol and wipe them down with that you don't
Justin Trosclair 54:29
sanitize them, like we're not breaking the skin, like a tattoo machine or something. No, we're not breaking this game. We're not we're not drawing blood anywhere. We've done thousands and thousands of treatments with these tools. We've never yet had any patient report any adverse reaction. So hard surface cleaner, maybe some bruising followed by something to get that chemical off if you want, we typically just spray them down with a an ethyl alcohol solution. Let him sit for about 2030 seconds buffum off with that and do maybe that once or twice and then we ready to go. They don't harbor any bacteria. If it cleans my hands, you know whatever clean my hands is going to do a much better job on the tools because there's there's no there's no places for the bacteria to really clarify. It's a non issue. Do you remember
Justin Trosclair 55:12
that machine the ATM machine to you? It's like a big black
square and a strappy
Justin Trosclair 55:16
down or they strap you against it and you're standing. And you might do range of motion with some massive resistance because you're strapped?
I've seen that you bet. Yeah, different versions that Yeah,
Justin Trosclair 55:25
if someone has like in the in the process that maybe there are new, their new graduate, they're excited they got some money to spend they know they need some fancy stuff, would you recommend the ATM? Or would you recommend strapped down range of motion resistance? Or would you recommend to recommend tools, you know,
we've if you walk into more progressive physical therapy clinics, you probably can see less machines because more and more we're using, we're using our hands were using the normal process of broad body learns to move which is the developmental sequence, you know from exercises that are body weight generated. And resistance we can be a week we can generate resistance anyway, from the simple as a plastic rubber band to you don't need all the fancy equipment, and we're learning the patients, they can't take that with them when they leave your clinic. So the programs are very integrative to where we get the patient and we warn them up, we warn them up we get them started with a an active movement process, not a passive modality. And then we we do a soft tissue technique to remove any inhibition to motion that we can then we give the patient a movement based exercise program that is very low tech. And then we create a home assignment that reinforces that and they take that home with them. So it's it's movement right from the start to the finish without any fancy equipment needed. And the tools that beautifully in that process. To make that happen.
Justin Trosclair 56:45
can massage therapists use this if they're trained? Or like what, what kind of what kind of initials? Do you have to have to be able to use this like, Can you just train like higher massage therapist and train them to use it and then that way, you don't even have to do it. here's
here's the fallacy of certification. There is no accrediting body that recognizes certification. And using these tools anywhere certification is basically is basically passed out by the facility that's rendering or giving the instruction. And then that's used for you to say, hey, I've been trained. So it's a signal to your referral sources or your patients that you have some additional training. So consistency, exactly. That being said, it's up to the training facilities or the individual doing the training to limit who they will train in using these these tools are instruments. I'm a firm believer that I don't have all the answers, and my initials after my name, don't don't make me any better than anybody else. So if you're interested in doing this, and you have a client base that could benefit from it, and you have the skill sets to gain the the knowledge and the motor skills to make this effective, then God bless you go out and go for it. If you end up creating injury or injure somebody, then you know, then that's where the danger exists. So we got them out practice. Yeah, yeah, you know, so fortunately, we haven't went run into a group of soft tissue work or buddy, we're clinicians that that wouldn't benefit from this. So and again, that's what that's what sets us aside with our philosophy with hot grips is, is we kind of a very open arms policy if you're gonna if you're going to do some work and help people out and we can teach you how to do a little bit better we're willing to teach you and that that's where we come in. So athletic trainers, massage therapists, bodywork specialist, physical therapists, chiropractors, I'll see Oh, Pathak physicians, alternative medicine individuals very good.
Justin Trosclair 58:31
Before you guys saw the questions I would like if you have a few minutes, as some of these little more personal just kind of ended on a more personal note, but sure you do either one of you have any kind of closing remarks about the science behind it, or the business side behind it before we kind of switch gears and kind of start wrapping this up.
Again, to wrap it all up. I think that this started with the idea of trying to break down scar tissue. And we're moving away from that thought process, it's more of a reorganization and involving the nervous system. So we don't have to be as aggressive and as brutal with the treatment, we can be a lot more gentle. And that's that's been a huge change, you know, so the science is moving in that direction. Definitely, that matches, again, my philosophies from how I render care with my patients. So that's I would just emphasize that point from the people that are getting into this, you'd have to really beat the crap out of someone, or bruise and heck out of their tissue to make this happen. There are philosophies and ideas to get to the depth of the tissue, you might have to break some blood vessels to get to that depth. But you don't have to be as aggressive as we want. Stop.
Justin Trosclair 59:28
That's really cool. I really like your philosophy. That's kind of how I do what I do in all areas. So it's good to see that you guys are actually lining up with on my end up with Justin's viewpoint, but kind of what I think the science is pointing towards, and you guys are definitely right on track with that nervous system reorganization. So that's awesome. Okay, so vacation, you guys, both workers, you got a business owner, you've got a guy who probably does seminars on the weekend, and he works full time. How do you take vacation? How do you if you don't? How do you if you don't? How do you take the more you know,
I This is Frank here, I, I travel much for my job. You know, and it's one of those things my mom says I need to have a little bit more of a balance in life. But the the issue and the thing I tell her is I thoroughly enjoy what I'm doing. So you know, I'm kind of working all the time. It's it's hard not to be because there's so there's so many things going on that we have to be on top of but in the in the past 12 months less, you know, I was in I was in Singapore, I was in London, I was supposed to go to Dubai a couple weeks ago, but I had something else came up. So I've been able to travel the world as well as I think I've probably been in maybe 4045 of the states in the last couple years. So traveling, it can get a little bit tiresome, you know, here and there. But again, it's when I look back and if you're really complaining that you're almost traveling too much, you know, there's a lot of other other issues out there in the world. So you know, I have had I was in the the Bahamas a few months ago, maybe a year ago. And so I do travel a lot and and I do try and have some fun, you know, as well with you know, with the workplace part of the travel,
this is Mark here on this, I think if you look at balance, you have to borrow and and you have to take from certain aspects of life to kind of move yourself in one area and then you've got to realize okay, now I've got to catch up and and and and focus on the inner personal side of life, I'm in a different place in life. And Frank is I'm you know, have a my youngest daughter is getting ready to go away to physical therapy school, and my wife and I are looking at being empty nesters. Yeah, probably in a little time, you know, my wife has sacrificed a tremendous amount to support me, in my endeavors and the traveling I you know, I'll be gone probably, on the average 20 weekends a year teaching something somewhere. And then when I'm not doing that, I'm writing new courses and, and I'm getting ready, I'm getting ready to submit for publication and presenting and so I'm always and then then I'm also in the clinic 50 plus hours a week, so it can get pretty crazy. So you got to have a point at which you say I've got a disconnect, I've got to go away, we got to focus on the other stuff to keep it all working. And it is truly a matter of juggling and and learning how to turn off not take work with you turn off your cell phone, don't look in the emails which can drive my colleagues a bit crazy. But it's a matter of balance, you know, you're you're catching up constantly catching up because I got from add or I can't I can't just I'm working 20 different directions at the same time. That's what makes me happy. And part of that is taking care of my family and making sure that I'm doing my best to make sure they don't get left in the in the in the backwash of me doing all these other things. I did have a question. I've always thought it'd be kind of cool to teach. I got a couple of tech techniques that I really like and would i would i think i could teach it you tell me what to say I can do it and be passionate about it and everything. But when you do talk about like you got to work five days a week or four days a week, whatever, then you gotta work on the weekends, you doing that for 20 weeks, potentially, it could be 20 out of 35 weeks, you could be on the road, how do you how do you stay focused and not have your clinic go down and then not have your wife kill you because you're literally always gone except for two hours a night. Any any topics on that any hints for other people that are doing that kind of thing. I mean, it seems like it'd be so difficult, they just take more time off of work, just work less we know that the week after, you have to truly have a sense when you are when you are losing focus in one area as you focus on another area there is if anybody that is has access to what we're talking about now, or to sit and watch what I'm saying, I'm sure they've all been a victim of my own schedule, when my schedule has bled into effect in their lives. And if you are watching that, I apologize right now because I know that that happens. But I think when people are around someone that is this passionate about what they're doing, they recognize that they're gonna have to pick up the slack for that person. And I have a lot of people that truly do that for me, if I didn't have that, there's no way I could do what I do. And I'm sure Frank can talk this as well. If you surround yourself with people that share your vision, they're going to help you achieve that vision. And if you don't have that, there's no way absolutely no way you can succeed in doing all those things and be all over the place. And you know, they're gonna have their time for you to focus your attention toward them. And then when you when they when that time comes, you focus your attention on them and do your best to help them out. And they'll turn around and help you out. So it's all about your support system. There's absolutely no way I could achieve and do what I do without an army of people there to back me up and helped me out a good,
Justin Trosclair 1:04:23
question. Both of you are married.
I'm single This is This is Frank. Mark, Mark. Yeah.
Justin Trosclair 1:04:29
All right, questions, still still fine spouses, significant others, when you're trying to keep the love alive in different relationships. So what's the what's a piece of advice that you can give all of us so we don't get up getting divorced, the will making all this money into success?
Well, this is Frank, who's single? So marks probably better at answering that one that I am.
How do that I'm a pretty passionate guy, you know, so I can I can, you know, well, first, first and foremost is I, you know, I married my best friend. And I've been married now 32 years. Thank you. I met my wife, I was a ski instructor out west. You know, it was one of those things where as soon as I met her, I knew that it was kind of scary, because I wasn't ready to settle down and get married. And I realize I met the person that was going to happen with you've got to, first of all, keep them in your life as far as what you're doing. And don't don't live a separate life, because my wife has in her background is finance and accounting. So she's the one that makes sure that the bills are paid, and I don't end up giving the whole thing away to somebody else, you know, and she raised the kids and, and, and our daughters, and she supports us. So she her role is so important, but she's not on the front lines like I am, and I let her know that on a constant basis. That is isn't mark out there doing all this, it's both of us as a team working together. So there's that foundation of were equals, then the next level is you got to get away and you gotta laugh, you got to make that person laugh and have fun together, then when you have the chance to really be alone and show them how much you care for him. You know, you got to keep the passion alive, you gotta do little things, and you got to make sure that that's, that's always a part and you can't let it go too long. Because it can it can, you know, it's like a it's like living, living process. And if you don't tend to, it will wither and die. Those things have to be constantly and it's got to come natural, you can't make it feel like it's being forced because it shouldn't be. But it all starts with finding the right person. I think if you don't have that process, there's it's just not going to work. So I'm very fortunate that that happened to
Justin Trosclair 1:06:36
create ideas. Last
two questions. Everybody. listen to the podcast. This is like Tim Ferriss, and all these days, they're always like, I do all this kind of stuff in the morning very regimented. Do you guys have like a morning or lunch routine that excites you for the rest of the day or keeps you focused?
I'll talk really quickly, what I do is, is I'm blessed with pretty good genetics from my parents. So I can do peer to I'm very much involved in exercise and working out keep my mind sharp, but unfortunately, with all the projects I've got going on, oftentimes, that is the time when I only have to sit in front of my computer and do some writing. So I'm one of those guys that that will, you know, I keep a close very close eye on just my general overall health. But what gets me up and getting some me going and the routine is what the day has in store for me more than anything would have to take care of. And if I have a little extra time, yes, I will grab time to take care of stretching exercise and all those things, I can honestly say I don't have a regimented routine, other than making sure I get to bed before one in the morning. And I'm getting up usually before six in the morning to get work done. So I unfortunately, I can exist on very little sleep, I can honestly say I don't have a strict regimented routine to make it all work. That's okay with me know what Frank is I'm going to hand him the mic, let him tell you what about front you got
Justin Trosclair 1:07:51
kind of like Mark said, I don't have a, you know, a strict routine kind of like Mark as well, I'm probably you know, undiagnosed very add I am an early riser. I do like to go to the gym in the morning. But what I've also found maybe over the last couple couple months now that I do have a good, I do have a good staff and I'm really just kind of there to you know, influence the culture and the direction and, you know, continue with the relationships with our customers, one of the nice things because they do have some probably more free time during the day than a lot of people do. Like, you know, if I want to leave for two hours I can I can, I can do it. So what I found and most of my friends from whether it's grade school, high school or college, you know, most of them are married now with children. And you know, they're spending pretty much all their time at, you know, either working or at their kids games or things like that. So what I've been doing is reaching out to, you know, get a lot of my buddies, so I don't get to see that often. And we'll just have like a nice long lunch now and a half lunch. And really, it's just nice that I'm always working on different entrepreneurial ventures, I have a couple other things going besides Hawk gross, but it's just a nice chance during the week to really catch up with the friends or family or things like that. So, you know, I've really been making a point whenever whenever I see a friend or I'm talking to a friend randomly on email or text to say, Hey, why don't we Why don't we get together for lunch? Yeah, pleasantly it's, it's been it's a nice breakup of the day and it's just nice to you know, even if I only do it once a year with some of these some of these guys or girls, you know, it's been something nice that I wish maybe I had done a little bit earlier
Justin Trosclair 1:09:24
and understand that I completely agree with you. You don't have friends unless you actually put out effort out there to hang out with them. And and lunch is a great time to do that. So very cool. Last question. Do you have any favorite books that you secretly love or just just have to share with people that just changed your life
I read a lot a ton on kind of constantly reading whether it's on my my phone, I'm always reading a novel some of the easy guys the easy people to read. You know, obviously James Patterson is easy Lee child he does the jack Reacher series. I'm reading those guys all the time. Brad Thor, kind of like, you know, authors in the in the mix of like a tom clancy See, I used to read all his books when he was alive. There's a guy named w Eb Griffith. He's got some series on the Marine Corps. But what I like is he actually has a whole series. The detective is actually a Philadelphia Police Department, sorry, a police detective. So it's kind of neat to read stories where you know, they're talking about certain roads that you're on, or certain hotels that you know, you're very familiar with. So that's in the fiction, I'm always reading any articles I can think of on business on entrepreneur type of things as well. So you know, my mind is always going and when it's not going, I'm reading somewhere, even if I'm watching the Phillies game, or if I'm watching something on TV, I probably have a book next to me or an article as well. So, you know, it's interesting. And again, maybe it's the entrepreneur and may, I was, I was a terrible student, you know, when the teacher would tell me to read something I wanted, but I would go to the library every night, and I would read, you know, whether it was real estate I was into at a certain time or whatnot. So I love to read, I love to learn, but I kind of like to read and learn what I'm interested. And if someone else tells me to do it, it's not going to happen.
Yeah, I have a very similar type of a of a process. From on the scientific side, I read wanted to journal articles a day. And I have often from the computer and I'll and I'll be collecting information about something I'm working on writing on. And it's one of the things that one article lead to the next and I'll find myself totally off topic and reading a paper that has nothing to do with anything I do at all just because it's absolutely fascinating to me to do that on the recreational end reading. If I'm going to pick up a book and read it, it's when I want to get lost in that creates feelings or emotions anywhere from happiness to a very poignant story. There's a few books that had that effect on me over the past three or four years. And I would say I would definitely think back on as high points to recreational just epics. I'm reading right now the century series by Ken Follett. It's a story of before World War One, all the way through to the present time and what was going on. And it's historical base, but it's it's fiction. So it's fascinating that I'm getting it and then I'll read actually historical true books what was going on during that time, and I can link them together so I get a better understanding my past. The thing that's really changed my life most recently is is my father recently passed away, he's he passed wait 96 he fought in World War Two right at the end, he was actually on Okinawa, where the battles and the fighting there was largely overshadow because it's right for the the the end of the war, where the atomic bombs are deployed, and he would never talk about his experiences. My one of my sisters went back and did research and found out he was actually in the teeth of the fighting. And the recent movie out Hacksaw Ridge, where my dad was actually in that battle. So I read about it, I studied about it went saw the movie, and I never realized what my dad was dealing with. And that that was life changing for me to realize, you know, the all these people that sacrificed you hear about it, and I didn't know that, you know, how close that person was in my own life, my father. So again, I love to feel alive, I love to feel I like to be engaged, I love to learn. And I'll be reading three or four books at the same time just to feed that, that thirst and hunger while I'm writing and studying and other things as well. So that gives you a brief insight into my mind how my brain works when it comes to wanting to be fed.
Justin Trosclair 1:13:18
They were like three peas in a pod because I'm kind of the same way if I don't have a book by my side while I'm watching TV or doing anything. I'm just
saying my where's the book? anyway? Definitely commercials
Justin Trosclair 1:13:27
I want to read. Well, how can people contact you guys,
they feel free to reach out to me directly. You know, like my email that I use, that is separate from you know, all the other emails to communicate on a professional level would be the number four and then PT man PT mn at gmail. com. It's easy one to remember the number four because there's four people in my family. And then PT is I'm passionate about being a physical therapist. So for PT men at gmail.com. I'll be happy to hear from anybody and be happy to get back to you. And here's for Frank absolutely beating somebody that's for sure.
My email is oz Posey at Hawk grips. One word ha Wk gr ip s.com as at Hall crips.com. And that's my nickname. I've been Ozzy since since I can remember because the last name is Osborne short and sweet. So that, you know, feel free and anyone listening in to email me anytime
he is the Wizard of Oz. There's no doubt about that.
Justin Trosclair 1:14:26
All right, very good. So hot grips, calm.
And Doc, just before we go, I this is the first podcast I have ever done. It's pretty neat. You know, my sister has a podcast. And you know, I come across a lot of fascinating people in my career and in life. So you know, it's something especially now that that I've had a chance to do this with you. It's something I may actually look at pursuing as well. And maybe have you on as a guest for mine, at least speaking for myself, I wanted to thank you, you know, for it for having us on there and letting us you know, tell a little bit about ourselves and our stories as well. And you know, obviously, I'd like to staying in touch with you, you know, now that you're over in China, and there's just a lot i'm sure what I could learn from you as well. So, you know, thanks for having me on today.
Justin Trosclair 1:15:07
Absolutely. Any questions you have just just ask us
night, I want to echo Frank and that I've, if someone had told me when I started as a physical therapist, and I'd be talking to a guy in China through the internet, I said, No way, you know, so this has been actually really cool. This has been a tremendous experience, you know, there's every chance we get a chance to cross paths or work together in the future. on a professional level. It's nice to have a colleague, someone like yourself that is passionate about information and share that information, anything I can do to help you in the future. You know, reach out to me anytime. It'd be it'd be a pleasure. You've been It has been a tremendous experience. We have to thank you on that. All right.
Justin Trosclair 1:15:44
Oh, man Yella, making me blush over here. I really appreciate you guys this time was oil. And
part of my job here is I think it's the build relationships and bridge different professions together, you know, we got a wide audience. So I really do hope that we can continue to be in touch and help each other out as much as possible. So downtown, I hope you guys have ever y'all. Y'all need help as well. So I really appreciate it.
My pleasure. And I'm yeah, this has been great experience. Thank you. All right.
Justin Trosclair 1:16:10
Isn't it interesting, some of the most profitable, gigantic corporations and businesses out there came about because they solve their own problem as had a problem, something worked, and he figured out how to make it better. Right. And then on the way he's been learning how to do more hiring, more growth, expansion, you know, to worldwide distribution. And then Dr. Butler, you know, he's, like we said very much in the same vein, you know, it's all about normalizing tissue, stimulating mechanical receptors, it's a nervous system response, all those types of things. So I really appreciated both of their times. I hope you guys as always take what they said Think about it, maybe take a course. But as promised, they have a special discount code for you guys, podcast. 15 all capitals, podcast. 15 to get 15% off all orders, okay, take him up on the offer. Go to the website, pop grips calm. Maybe just get the basic tool, maybe get a package either way podcast 15 15% off all orders. The word is spelled out in all caps Travel Tips coming up next.
They're ready paperback Kindle versions are available on Amazon. As always, you can also snag a free copy if you'd like a doctor's perspective. NET slash free ebook today's choices tomorrow's health small steps to improve health food choices and exercise. Learn how to go from a couch potato or a weekend warrior and have simple steps kind of personalized just for you three different blueprints for exercise how to cut some cars without hurting yourself a couple of changes and what and how you eat so that there's not a lot of extra willpower and self control necessary to reduce how much you eat 12 exercises a 10 minute cardio that's better than 30 minutes, three minutes stretching concept that won't make you roll your eyes and boredom an AB routine you won't quit exclusive Facebook support group. Yes, and an entire section about a nervous system boot discusses chiropractic civilizations and things like that look, if you want it again, a doctor's perspective. NET slash free ebook, it has a video explaining what it is a little PowerPoint presentation in there and put your name, put your email and then you can make a choice if you want to support the show. We have merchandise. We've got Upper Cervical chiropractic t shirts, we've got podcast logo, t shirts, mugs, hoodies, as well as a generous by the host of coffee PayPal button if you want to no pressure.
If you want to follow me on social media, the easiest way to find me is the go to a doctor's perspective. net, look on the top right, it's kind of gray color is all a little social media icons. If you need to email me, I would love to hear your comments, critiques, etc. Justin at a doctor's perspective, net Connect comment and I'll reply back. And if you can go to iTunes, go to Stitcher, wherever it is that you listen to this podcast, go to the site, give us a review. Hope your five star review, let us know what you think it'll help us with all the rankings. And we appreciate it. And if you happen to get any merchandise, definitely take a picture posted on social media hashtag behind the curtain or you can do at whatever my tag is, I'll definitely give you a thumbs up.
Today's travel tip is using cam scanner. This is a great thing that saved me a lot of times I can get a picture taken of an important document, upload it to the app, which also you know is in the cloud, then I can just print it, maybe sign a document, take another picture of it and it makes it very high resolution. You can email it as a picture Gmail as a PDF back to the person they print that off and then you're good to go. I mean, I got important documents backed up. You do receipts there's so many things you can do with it. It definitely comes for me It comes in handy when I need something that looks like an original. This program really comes in handy when you need to fact something but you can't fax you don't have anything there and then even original signature. It's a lifesaver and it saves it password protected. It's a really great there's a lot more options haven't even talked about but probably were well, especially you're gonna be traveling and you need to get some things done business wise.
We just went hashtag behind the curtain and this episode has come to an end. I hope you got the right dose for your optimal life. Please spread the word about this podcast by telling to friends, share it on social media, and visit the show notes on a doctor's perspective. net to see all the references from today's guests. sincere thank you in advance, even listening to Dr. Justin Charles Claire giving you a doctor's perspective.
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James Patterson Collection James Patterson Black Book
Lee Child Jack Reacher series Lee Child with Jack Reacher No Middle Name
Brad Thor Brad Thor new book in June 2017 Use of Force
Tom Clancy Tom Clancy
WB Griffith WB Griffith
Ken Follett Ken Follett Century Trilogy Winter of the World , Edge of Eternity , Fall of Giants
Being fluent in Korean and for other reasons, he has a heart for the book Hacksaw Ridge and here is the movie too. Hacksaw Ridge Movie