E 58: Facial Acupuncture Professor Michelle Gellis Gives a Rare Interview

e58 a Doctors Perspective michelle gellis lacmac shownotes 1

Michelle Gellis, LAcMAc DiplAc talks to Dr Trosclair on A Doctors Perspective Podcast

Are you ready to be intrigued with the benefits of Cosmetic Facial Acupuncture by long time acupuncturist professor Michelle Gellis? Intradermal needles, collagen rejuvenation, whole body effects-her classes and patient stories will get you motivated to learn more.

Professor Michelle Gellis, LAcMAc DiplAc is one of very few cosmetic acupuncturist certified by the American Acupuncture Council to teach facial acupuncture. She has classes on not only Facial Acupuncture but also Treating Neuromuscular Facial Conditions and an open online class (not just acupuncturists allowed) on Facial GuaSha and Cupping.

She has been published in the Journal Of Chinese Medicine, edited a chapter in the Acupuncture Desk Reference, as well as being published in multiple publication like Acupuncture Today and Elephant Journal.

Facial class: focus on learning body points and how that affects the skin, organ systems that affect the face, acupuncture points on the face and which to use.

Did you know facial requires a special certification and a special rider on your insurance malpractice? She lists off conditions that people can have that would be contraindicated for facial needles. Also, does proactive cosmetic acupuncture care help to not need the “Botox” and facelifts later in life to begin with?

An amazing success story of acupuncture for her own 6 week old son and how that was the catalyst for her discovering this ancient art of healing.

We don’t go too much into it, but she is a 5 element acupuncturist vs a Traditional Chinese Medicine acupuncturist.
Her deep passion and what she teaches courses in, is facial acupuncture since 2005. Sure she specializes in beautification points of the face, but she gives a more nuanced explanation on how she has to consider organ function and points outside of the face to truly get noticeable and long lasting results.

Changing the color, texture, tone, removing wrinkles and even helping with neurological issues of the face are all aspects that she sees positive changes in clients. What I thought was wild, you can actually purposely needle under facial muscles to get your desired outcomes.

Learn some basic signs that your organs are unhealthy and contributing to your skin issues.

With so many points and schools of thought, why do some acupuncturist pick certain points over others?

Should you discount some of your services when first starting out or charge what you are worth. We had a good discussion on marketing and prices that should not be missed. … around minute 24. Would you go to your MD and ask for a deal with your gall bladder surgery?

People will put as high of a value on you, as you put on yourself. If your prices are too low, the patient may say, “Why so low?” Don’t diminish the profession by offering the farm on coupon sites.

She double dips- she gets tired of the winter, so she decided to take her teaching schedule to areas of the country that she wants to visit: vacation and a work weekend … classic!

www.facialacupunctureclasses.com

www.gellisacupunture.com

Check her website because in March 2018 she has multiple locations where she will be teaching.

Book: The Success Principles TM 10th Anniversary Edition How to Get from Where You Are to Where You Want to Be Jack Canfield

Show notes can be found at www.adoctorsperspective.net/58 here you can also find links to things mentioned and a transcript of the interview.

This episode is part of the Acupuncture 2018 Series. Put your email to get a Quick Reference PDF of all the episodes.

Full Transcript of the Interview (probably has some grammatical errors). Just Click to expand

Justin Trosclair 0:03
Episode 58 facial acupuncture professor gives a rare interview. I'm your host, Dr. Justin. Trust glare. Today we're Michelle Gellar perspective

join 2017 podcast Awards Nominated host Dr. Justin trust Claire as he gets a rare to see him, look into the specialties, all types of doctors and guess plus marketing, travel tips, struggles, goals and relationship advice.

Unknown 0:27
Let's hear a doctor's perspective.

Justin Trosclair 0:31
Get ready. Get excited. If you'd like acupuncture, then you are going to be excited for the next five weeks. Yes, that's right. We have acupuncture month with a naturopathic does acupuncture, emotional trauma, we got books, we've got someone who studied in China and in Australia, so prepare yourself for the ancient art and science of acupuncture.

I hope everybody is having a fantastic Marty girl today. You might say yourself. Oh, Justin. Now the music completely makes sense. Yes, of course. That's where I'm from Fat Tuesday. Stay safe on with the program. Are y'all ready to learn some new things about cosmetic facial acupuncture, a long term professor who's going to talk all things college and rejuvenation into dermal under the muscle needle lean. She's got lots of classes, patient stories, we've been talking about marketing and know your knowing your true value to the neuromuscular conditions of the face. Lots of lots of cool things like that. She normally doesn't do interviews. But today she made an exception because why would a chiropractor be in China? Well, don't worry, we don't talk about that during the interview. But hey, someone is good as she is. I'm glad she chose to to say yes, and you will be excited that you did just got classes in March coming up. So take a listen. If you like it, go to her website. Facial acupuncture classes.com you can sign up

tell a friend send them a link. Follow me on Facebook. You can find all the links all the pictures, share it spread the word. It's something that you need to know about it something that other people should know about. Let's not let it be a secret in 2018 any longer. Today's episode a doctor's perspective. NET slash five. Eight is for the show notes. Let's go hashtag behind the curtain

live from China and Maryland. We have a new type of guests today we have a professor professor of what you might ask acupuncture. Michelle Gillis licensed acupuncturist, welcome to the show. Hi, how are you? I'm doing fantastic. Like said we haven't had your type of expertise on the show yet. So I'm really excited to pick your brain about your specialty, which is kind of facial acupuncture and teaching classes about that. So I really would love to know maybe bring it back just a little bit. How did you decide to do acupuncture of all the things that you could have done in life?

Unknown 2:55
Well, youngest child was born with a condition called albinism. So he is and apply know. And one of the problems with albinism is it affects the vision and even at six weeks old, we notice there something wrong with his eyes. And so we did some research and found in the British Journal of theology that acupuncture could help with involuntary I movement which is called the segment's there really wasn't a Western medical treatment for it. So, when he was about 12 weeks old, we took him for acupuncture and as luck would have it, the person who was his acupuncturist was one of the world's leading experts on scalp, acupuncture. Dr. Jason how, and the needle sign in and my son's I stopped moving Well, I mean, it was it was it was only 12 weeks old. So there was no placebo effect. There was no

Unknown 4:11
you know, participation on his part at all screen it Well, no, there was none of that either. He actually fell asleep. And so for two and a half years, we took him to see Dr. Half or acupuncture. When we moved to Maryland. We were living in Albuquerque at the time we moved to Maryland, I was interested in changing careers, my backgrounds in computer science, but I had been a stay at home mom running a nanny agency for a few years in New Mexico. So when we got to Maryland, I started getting acupuncture myself and I really loved it. And I looked into I can crystal and fell in love with the holistic aspects in the

Unknown 4:57
you know, no medicine and it's something that I could do for the rest of my life until I can hold a needle anymore right

Justin Trosclair 5:05
like they even have those electric kind of don't they

Unknown 5:08
Yeah, I don't know a lot of bout that on very old school. My five element acupuncturist which is a little different than TCM, but too much information to go into a podcast. It's a very, very old form of you puncture, so I don't use any gizmos or dad

Justin Trosclair 5:26
and I trade and at this point, when you look at where you've been, and where you are now, what have you developed as as your specialty in the field.

Unknown 5:36
So I became interested in what's commonly known as facial rejuvenation, acupuncture or cosmetic acupuncture. When I was still a student, I was 4344 when I graduated acupuncture school and living out west had certainly taken its toll my skin. So I did it for purely selfish reasons. a classmate class and myself went up and studied with someone, and we worked on each other, and no one in Maryland was doing it. In fact, for a long time, she and I were the only two people in Maryland after we graduated who was you know, doing cosmetic acupuncture. So I studied with many different people and put together a system based on what I knew about the meridians, what I knew about acupuncture, what I had learned and quickly had my students from the acupuncture school, I started teaching right after I graduated, a lot of my students wanted to learn. And that's kind of how the classes got started. And that was back in 2005, 2006.

Justin Trosclair 6:53
And for those who don't know it, because not everybody is into acupuncture that listens, I've been around here, you know, in China for about four years. And every time you go to a different hospital, or you see a different doctor, it's like, they just have their own, not their own, but they've learned what works, and they've through their own practice. And if they were to write a manual of this, how you treat, you know, herniated This is how you treat this, they probably wouldn't look all that similar. There'll be some similarities, but there be enough differences were like, how did you pick these points over these other points that I like to use? Is that accurate?

Unknown 7:25
Absolutely. Acupuncture

Unknown 7:28
has been around for over 5000 years. So there have been many teachers and masters and they all have their own style L, we all start from the same foundation of points. But within that there are a lot of different ways to get to the same place. And cosmetic acupuncture is no different even within the realm of cosmetic acupuncture in this country. There's just a handful of us who do each cosmetic acupuncture who are certified by the American acupuncture council to teach facial acupuncture, and we all have different styles and techniques. But the end result is to, you know, help help the person not just on the outside, but on the inside as

Justin Trosclair 8:18
well. And that's one thing I'm curious about is what what would be some of the most common I don't know a conditions or reason somebody would want to go see you for fate, like, what does that encompass? If you were to mark what would you market?

Unknown 8:31
Well, cosmetic acupuncture, first and foremost, typically is for individuals who would like to improve the appearance of their skin. Now, that can mean

Unknown 8:46
erasing fine lines, helping to improve deeper wrinkles and folds improve the color of the skin, the texture of the skin, but it goes beyond that in that and that's why I call it facial acupuncture and not just cosmetic because it can also help with common skin, things like acne or

Unknown 9:15
dark spots, things that like that. But it also helps with Bell's palsy and TMJ. And

Unknown 9:28
if someone has had a stroke, someone who is very well versed in cosmetic acupuncture will understand the musculature of the face, the

Justin Trosclair 9:39
all the different nerves in the face, and how they innovate the muscles in the face. And being able to work with that along with body points that affect those meridians. They can affect change in the face, not just on the skin level. And I've seen that personally here is we'll see it decent amount of you know, strokes. And we had a guy he fail, I don't know, four stories and is right I just doesn't work right now. And they're like, you know, that three surgeries and about six months. And, you know, they're asking my opinion, and I was like, Look, I can adjust called day, but it's not going to reconnect those nerves and the acupuncture. You know, she was like, yeah, let's let's do some acupuncture. Like, yeah, let's do it. So she's, she's got needles all over his face. And she does like a little bit electricity on some of them. And I don't know if he's getting results yet. But we see it a lot. It's really interesting. Like putting needles in the face and not really the angles different, the points are going to be different. You can actually treat other parts of the body through the face as well, which was surprising

Unknown 10:41
and vice versa. Yeah, I mean, I threw a term out there. And for non acupuncture, this app there. The word meridian essentially just describes pathways in the body that had been mapped out over centuries said acupuncturist use, there are 12 main meridians and they run from our toes to our face from our fingertips to our face, and vice versa. Some of them run to the torso and they cover the entire body. And then along each one of those pathways. There's points and acupuncturists use those to affect the pathways in different ways.

Unknown 11:30
Does that make sense? Make sense? If I had

Unknown 11:33
I had a video, I could show you a little picture. But

Justin Trosclair 11:36
I would like to think, you know, maybe because I'm in my own realm, we've all seen the little the body with the black lines running up and down, and yeah, that's, that's the point, that's the meridians. And there's points throughout their nails, they got it all, all the points that fancy names, and that's what they go to school, you know, part of it is having to memorize where each point is, you know,

Unknown 11:54
yes, so, and, and if I can just piggyback on that. So the, one of the unique things about facial acupuncture, if you think about a face compared to the rest of the body, the face has more musculature per square inch as far as different muscle groups than any other part of the body. And doing facial acupuncture is very unique, because not only are you working with the actual meridians, but someone who is very skilled can work with individual individual muscle groups, and either needle trigger points or motor points that affect the muscle, you can needle underneath the muscle and really sculpt the face in ways that you probably wouldn't be interested in doing like on a shoulder or back or something. So it's one of the things that makes fatal acupuncture unique is the different ways that we use needles as opposed to just putting them into acupuncture points when that's what you just

Justin Trosclair 13:07
caught me off guard with the under the muscle. So that actually take some pretty intense skills. And is that what you're teaching in these classes that are approved by the acupuncture point? Yeah,

Unknown 13:18
yeah, I'm in my, I have two different classes that I teach. One of them is more cosmetic, and the other is treating neuromuscular facial conditions. In the cosmetic class, I teach some basic sub muscular, and intra muscular needling techniques. But the main focus of that class is learning which body points affect the scan and the different organ systems that affect the face. And also the Occupy points on the face and which of those to use the more advanced techniques of sub muscular needling and motor points and things of that nature is total my neuromuscular class,

Unknown 14:15
and one important piece of acupuncture is that it it works not just with

Unknown 14:26
like a, if you're thinking about the whole body, when I'm doing facial acupuncture, I'm diagnosing the person first to see how their livers functioning, how their kidneys are functioning how their spleens functioning because the major organ systems like the lungs, and the stomach, and the bladder, all affect our skin, our blood and right as all the organs are connected to, everything's connected to everything. Yeah, and that that's one of the unique things so about what you do, right? I would think, because when you're doing an adjustment you're treating frequently or not just treating the back your work, you know, right, because it's

Justin Trosclair 15:10
through the spine, wherever the nerves go.

Unknown 15:12
Yeah, so when I'm doing a liver point on someone's foot, let's say it can help their liver, liver to function better the liver, cleanse the blood, if your blood is deficient, or stagnant or not healthy, it's going to show up in your complexion. Same thing with kidneys. If your kidney deficient, you're going to have dark circles under your eyes, your you know, it's your adrenal, so it all it's all connected. So when I teach facial acupuncture, and not everyone does it this way, some people just treat the face when I teach facial acupuncture, I do a full body treatment. And that enables the patient to relax because I'm taking care of body mind

Justin Trosclair 16:01
their spiel, and it helps their organs to be more healthy as well to that was going to be one of the follow up questions I had for you was just on the face, there's different ports, you know, you can do all ear and hit every part of the body just by the ears, because I'm guessing there's gonna be points in the face. If you don't really know what you're doing. Potentially, you might hit a spot that's like, Oh, that's gonna up regulate the kidneys. But your kid is already up regulated, you need to actually drop those down. So you wouldn't have hit that point, you would have done this other point. And then then you went in her head and said, Actually, I go to the foot I go some results to make sure the Oregon systems are actually doing their job. So that way you can, you know, kill two birds with one stone take care of this size of get better. Yeah, and we get rid of your crush me that same time.

Unknown 16:44
Yes, I like that. So by Yeah, by treating the body or treating the face. And by treating the face or treating the body. There are points on the face that you don't want to needle under certain conditions. Another big piece of facial acupuncture and the reason why it is the only branch of acupuncture in this country that requires a separate certification. So you can you can do pediatrics, geriatrics treat, cancer, multitude of different things, and you don't have to have a special certification. But for facial acupuncture, you do within the realm of the the major insurance company for acupuncturist in this country. And there's really only two companies that most of us use, but with the American acupuncture council insurance, they require a special certification be cause there are contract indications. This does bring a lot of energy to the head and people that have high blood pressure, who aren't in good health people who suffer from frequent migraines. They should not be having facial acupuncture

Justin Trosclair 18:00
is it that's interesting, because they wouldn't have a special writer for that or like, you know, a need to have a certification if it didn't work. It didn't actually have a response in a negative way. They wouldn't even care. But they do. And that does happen. So there's just there's something to it for sure.

Unknown 18:16
Well, there's no doubt in my mind,

Unknown 18:19
I've treated thousands and thousands of individuals, both in my classes and my practice, and I'm also a product of the product myself, I treat myself I have colleagues that treat me I am 56 years old, I wouldn't again Well,

Unknown 18:43
at some point, I won't be able to brag about it. I guess

Unknown 18:48
not to be doing it every day, all myself. But I do try to stay ahead of the little fine lines. And you know, gravity and old age being thin working live at all takes its toll on 15 years living out west in in the desert.

Justin Trosclair 19:05
Yeah, we certainly could always just throw caution to the wind, any anything you want. And you get fat those last 1020 years of your life. Can you know fat people, they typically don't really have as many wrinkles because, you know,

Unknown 19:18
I know

Justin Trosclair 19:20
in the Met, but

Unknown 19:21
yeah, I you know. Yeah.

Justin Trosclair 19:26
Justin's Joker. Joker.

Unknown 19:28
No, it's true. It's true. I when I teach my class, I have pictures of twins that I identical twins that there was a study done identical twins and just who looks older. Yeah, essentially. And you know, one of them smoke one of them. Good. One of them lived in Florida. One of them looked at Michigan. One of them was ski One of them was heavy. One of them had a rough life. One of them had an easy life. And the differences are astounding in their appearances. I'll

Justin Trosclair 19:57
be fun to set on.

Unknown 19:58
Yeah, yeah. Yeah, it was. It was in a magazine. You've just given me an idea, though. That would make an interesting social media post. Just take a picture of that. Yeah, I like it.

Justin Trosclair 20:07
Before we move on to something else. I'm curious about the misconceptions. I'm trying to sprinkle some in there while we were having the conversation. But what are some of the most common misconception somebody is calling your office, hey, I'd like to get some treatment. But

Unknown 20:22
people in this country especially well, I don't know anything about other countries. So let's just talk about people in this country. Yeah, they want a quick fix. They call me up they want to now this is not a one size fits all treatment. So when people call me up, and potential patient calls me up and they want facial acupuncture, they will ask how many treatments? Yeah, and I don't know, because I have not seen them. I don't have their history. This is not Botox or selling other type of thing where I could say, well, I'm going to do this is going to take this long, and this is what you're going to look like afterwards. You're going to be patient. It does take it takes 12 weeks. Yeah, the body produce collagen. That's a while. So you're looking if you have visible signs of aging, and not all of my patients, do I believe it or not, I have patients in my practice who are in their late 20s, early 30s, and they are coming to me because they want to maintain their youthful appearance. And I applaud them, they are doing something proactive so that they don't have to have a facelift, get the Botox, get the fillers, lasers, peels, all this stuff that people are doing, which is painful and harsh, and some cases dangerous. So I mean, Botox is botulism

Justin Trosclair 22:03
toxin, they couldn't use half their face for a few weeks. After one time they did it. I was like, Yeah, I can't help you.

Unknown 22:09
So what I tell people is it it's not a one and done you can't rush the body. It's like making a baby or putting braces on your teeth. It is something that is gradual. But my patients who come to me regularly, I have women who come to me now that are in their late 50s, early 60s that have been coming to me since they were in their late 40s. And they look as good now as they did then. And trust me, when you're 60, if you look like you're 48, you're very happy.

Unknown 22:51
You know, if more people went even once a month and got facial acupuncture, then it really slowly the aging process down dramatically. And in some cases, stops it the visible signs of aging it it practically stops it in its tracks. So it looks it's the college's whatever does the collagen Yes. Well, I mean, and there are Yeah, I mean, there were a lot of different things that go on because he doesn't just take place on the skin level, right, you got your muscles begin to atrophy shrink. That's why all people look the way they do. They don't have as much muscle on your fat, you have less fat in your face. It just kind of all slides down to your stomach and your but when you get old literally. You know your body will use fat in your face. Because it's a non essential before it'll go towards that that's around your organs. Which is essential so you spent in your face and your muscles are not you don't have as many money are not functioning as well. And so everything star and gravity so it's it's all about bringing energy up to the face into the muscles. And I do facial copying and facial gloss Sha as the end I know it people think of copying they think of Michael Phelps in the Olympics and those big red marks. But facial wash saw me look nothing like that. Nothing like OK, they're not getting chiropractic. Yeah. Oh, you're thinking of like, what that graft and technique or something.

Justin Trosclair 24:33
Yeah, let's get after it. Yeah,

Unknown 24:36
now popping is very gentle. I put some oregano oil or coconut oil on the face and it very gentle facial it. It's great for breathing blood and what we call Chi or energy out to the skin and the gratia helps to sculpt the muscles and to sculpt the face. And it's extremely relaxing. We do it on the temples and the temporary Alice muscle down the back of the neck. It helps with

Justin Trosclair 25:11
so many people have the cleanse their teeth, they keep a lot of their stress and anxiety in their jaw. So those muscles have got to be ready for some wife saw that we just need to release these muscles a little bit. And you'll just your face is going to look younger already. Possibly

Unknown 25:26
you'll have to take my facial copying, and gosh our webinar and you'll learn all about

Unknown 25:31
like the general flow.

Unknown 25:35
And you know, if you have a lot of tension in the back of your neck, as most people do these days, from texting all day long, and looking at their phones,

Unknown 25:47
doing wash down the back of the neck can really help to release the face as well as if I like

Justin Trosclair 25:54
I like marketing. So I'm not gonna lie to you about this when we're talking 12 weeks or someone who's like I really wanted do it for a year because I know that's going to give me the best results. Have you found that offering like packages or bundling things together and offering a better price helps people to commit to the care that ultimately that they would need.

Unknown 26:12
Ah, my students asked me this all the time. And, you know, here's the thing, and this is a personal thing. I like to think of what I do as more of a medical treatment. You would never go to your notice cosmetic, but you would never go to your MD and say Hey, could could you give me a deal here cuz you know, I, I really do want to have this gallbladder surgery but yeah, it's cost prohibitive. Could you cut me a break it I don't I I'm sure there are acupuncturist out there who would discount their services I value my time and if I were charging less less for what I do, I would probably be joyful about boy wouldn't give them better and it had occasions but I would rather patients be relaxed and be doing the best possible job I could and not feel like I was some bargain basement acupuncturist Yeah. Trying to get as many people in here as possible. I and that's me and you can edit it out and leave it in I I'm just being as honest as possible. I have had the only thing I will do. And my other business which I've been I've had for about six years now. I think I have a micro needle Dharma roller business. And what I will do if people are really trying haggle me over the price is I will tell them if they pay for all 12 treatments fright, I will give them a free drama roller and they feel like they've gotten something and I, you know, not resentful over as I have. And just sat there and work for free. Yeah. Does that make

Justin Trosclair 28:20
100% sense? And I want to say this too, is I think when I chat with people who were kind of in your area of practice who's you know, little older and been there for a while, versus the new guys and gals out 25 years old, there's a different thinking pattern like no, I'm worth the time I'm worth like, my skills and everything. That's what I'm charging. And then young people I don't know, if they don't have the confidence or if they're just, you know, starving, but they're more willing to willing deal so that they can, I don't know, build a clientele or maybe put food on the table. But it's definitely like this interesting difference between someone who's got 20 years experience versus, you know, two or three. But I like what you're saying. And that's how we should talk start clinic is

Unknown 29:01
Yeah, fees you like said, Yeah,

Justin Trosclair 29:03
you don't get to negotiate your brain surgery.

Unknown 29:06
Well, here's the thing. I teach one of the classes I teach at the acupuncture school, because believe it or not, when I was in school, there were no classes in marketing or promoting your practice or anything. And I was in I just, I was incredulous, I, you know, finished acupuncture school and was kind of on my own, how do I get the word out? And I approached the dean and I said, We need a class. And he said, find put it together. So I teach,

Unknown 29:39
one of the classes that I teach is business practices. And what's the secret

Unknown 29:45
I I, you know, here's, here's the deal, I treat my practice very much the way I treated dating when I was dating, and that is you have to put a hot people are only going to put as high of a value on you as you put on yourself. So if you're going to go to Massage Envy for a massage, and it's $10 or whatever, whatever it is, whatever it is, now, they have like an acupuncture version I

Justin Trosclair 30:18
got the acupuncture version to the other carpet version to for crying did acupuncture now for 595

Unknown 30:26
and was an all the acupuncturist out there have their panties in a wad. And I said, You know what, those people that want to pay $10 for acupuncture? I don't want the patient has a headache.

Justin Trosclair 30:38
Man, that is a headache

Unknown 30:42
right now, yes, there is a little bit more pressure on me to perform if I'm going to charge without worth. But again, getting back to the dating analogy, people put as high of a value on you, as you put on yourself. If you put yourself on the sale rack of the store. Everyone's going to be wondering why the person very first person who trained me back in 2002, 2003

Unknown 31:13
back then in some little rinky dinky town was charging $300 the treatment Well, I think about a better different results. She Yes, they're better the results. And there's a line of people waiting to see her she her value and she understood her time and how important it was. I don't care if you're brand new, or you've been doing this for 30 years. You cannot diminish the profession and the amount of time and money that you spent in school and your knowledge by, you know, offering Groupon or whatever it i'm not saying you should never give any kind of

Justin Trosclair 32:01
there's a time and place for a discount.

Unknown 32:02
Yes, maybe isn't the exam sorry,

Unknown 32:07
but it's one of my pet peeves up obviously, you know,

Justin Trosclair 32:09
I was a part of a group and they they were always upset with like chiropractors who did always like, well, I'm gonna charge you the full amount for the exam. But then the rest of the 12 visits or whatever, they're all discounted to like a ridiculous number or something. And they had the opposite of like, look terrible. You know, chiropractic, acupuncture, it's not that mainstream people have reservations about come and see us. So maybe lower the price on that exam, the exam of the consultation so they'll come in chat with you, the fall in love with you, they'll fall in love with the results and then they can pay for every other visited full price is like y'all got some of these people are doing it backwards. And then, you know, yeah, like you said, somebody else is gonna say, Well, no, we don't really discount ever because now I know, you know, I am who I am. I know what I can do. That's just how it's going to be. But

Unknown 32:56
well, and there are like, I get just starting it.

Justin Trosclair 33:00
It's a different ballgame.

Unknown 33:02
I think I've been there and I didn't have other sources of income. But I found that the less you charge, it's just like anything else. You know, you go into CVS, you're looking at the skincare products, you're going to buy the one that's $2, are you going to buy the one that's $200? Well, maybe you're not going to buy the most expensive one, but you're certainly not going to buy the least expensive one way. So again, marketing, you have to look at what the market will bear where you're living and don't undervalue yourself. Yeah, yep. It's a big conversation. And like I said, I teach a class in it, and my students balk at me, and I get it one of my students who's in one of these big acupuncture marketing groups on Facebook and that's all they talk about and all that Oh, please. Anyway, I'm it I taught her facial acupuncture in a class last spring and she's coming to me as a patient now and she said Michelle you should charge more home and and i she said Michelle I'm going to be charging more than you and I I definitely had a little internal Anke Stover raising my rates sort of do What is there?

Justin Trosclair 34:20
Somebody said one time if you can't be the number one cheapest? What's the point of being the second cheapest, just be higher? Yeah, but we'll see. We got marketing. That was a really good conversation. In my opinion. We've talked about some of the students some of the struggles that they have some misconceptions than really, really good so far. I like to switch gears a little bit, just go a little personal for a minute. You're You sound like you've got four different ways to earn a living. And are you able to actually take vacation? Like, what's your plan to to recharge?

Unknown 34:52
I here's what I do. Yeah.

Justin Trosclair 34:55
Are you one of those

Unknown 34:56
people that don't even know I do. I there was certainly a time when I didn't. When I have three kids. I was raising them going to school, and I was younger, when you get older, you definitely need to recharge or you will burn out. Even Oprah recharges. But my and and and you recognize the importance of stillness. And you know, even the Tony Robbins of the world, you know, as you get older life is not just about work. Now, yes, I am a workaholic. But when I'm doing nothing, which is rare. My family, my family just looks at me like I'm a force of nature.

Unknown 35:51
I have this reminder that goes off in my head that says, Michelle, you really do like being in a kayak and Michelle you really do love hiking and wow, working on a needle point. or reading a book is really restorative. I don't watch TV. I catch a movie once a week or so when I'm exercising in the morning. I do all my social media stuff. So it's out of the way and done for the day. It's convenient, but as far Yeah, well, yeah, that which means I do a lot of cardio because it's kind of hard to lift weights and do social media at the same time. Um, but if there was

Unknown 36:34
a way I would be doing this, and this takes, please.

Unknown 36:37
Yeah, yeah. Siri, take a picture of me and tell Alexa to

Unknown 36:44
anyway. What I have figured out Well, I hate winter. And I live in a place in the country where we got winner starts in November. And it doesn't go away until like, may you have a bomb

Justin Trosclair 36:57
on her right now, or is that on the calendar coast?

Unknown 37:01
Did you see

Justin Trosclair 37:02
a thought on the news is like on the, you know, the internet? Like what in the world at the Google that term? Oh, my God, I'm glad I'm up there.

Unknown 37:10
I'm so over it. Anyway, what I decided a few years ago was instead of just teaching my facial acupuncture classes locally, I was going to take my show on the road. So what I do, and I am answering your question about vacations. What I do is I plan my classes in places that I want to go to. So so you may see me in China someday, I don't know.

Justin Trosclair 37:38
But I need your wants. The during each. I'm going to Myrtle Beach.

Unknown 37:42
Yes, yes. So this autumn I taught a class and Asheville, North Carolina. Now, I do pick places where there are acupuncturists like I wouldn't be in Montana, but

Justin Trosclair 37:59
but why would you go there anyway? Oh, billion. So sorry,

Unknown 38:04
Montana,

Unknown 38:06
I love the mountains, or where you would go, that's for sure. Ya know.

Unknown 38:09
And

Justin Trosclair 38:11
I like what you're saying, though, you pick places because you're the one teaching out you're presenting it, you can pick wherever you want, you can just find a hotel have a place where does acupuncture people kind of populate it so they don't have to, you know, there's a local following, at least,

Unknown 38:23
absolutely. So this winter, and here's a little plug for my class. I'm going to be in Scottsdale, Arizona next week. So the classes three days, but I'm going to show up a day early, so I can acclimate a little bit to the time.

Unknown 38:42
And then I am going to do some shopping and enjoy some biking and hiking, I'll teach for three days, get out to Sedona and I usually will meet up with a friend who might live there or have someone come meet me. And that is how I do my vacations. I'm going to be in Florida three times this winter. I'm going to be in Sarasota, and then I'm taking two weeks in between to vacation. And then I'm going to be in Fort Lauderdale. And I'm going back in March. I'll be in Orlando

Unknown 39:23
not really for vacation. I was invited to teach and an acupuncture school there. And I'm considering California. I haven't really firmed anything up. But next fall. I may be doing Europe for the first time. So that is how I get my vacation. It's like work

Justin Trosclair 39:42
your classes fill up every time they sell out.

Unknown 39:45
Not every time but I always make enough money to pay for the trip and few days of vacation on either end. And that's always my goal. So I my classes, I keep them really small. The largest class I've ever had was when I taught now I had 35 students. And fortunately I had two assistance. And so that one off really well. But I'd like to keep my classes small because it's very hands on. And we're learning techniques using little untraditional needles, other noodling techniques so I don't want to teach to 200 that kind

Justin Trosclair 40:27
of attention. They at least every now and then in a weekend.

Unknown 40:31
Yeah. So yeah, I mean, choosing that the, you know, I I have been published in the Journal of Chinese medicine, I edited a chapter and the acupuncture Desk Reference. I've been published in quite a few different acupuncture publications like acupuncture today, and just some new agey places like elephant journal, if you're familiar with that. It's like a newsletter for

Justin Trosclair 41:07
new agey people,

Unknown 41:07
300

Unknown 41:11
Earth muffins and I'm trying to get a TED ad or a TEDx together be cause where I really come alive is when I'm up in front of people. But really finding 30 people in another part of the country to come together to take three days off of work and study with you is a big deal. It's the class class. Yeah, the, you know, the classes are the reasonably priced and when you leave that my class, you have everything you need to practice. There's no Well, now you have to take this class and my advanced class and my this techniques and that technique, I think we appreciate one for sure. Yeah, I mean, no one wants to have to take 12 different classes to be able to do something, especially,

Justin Trosclair 41:59
I'm sure you've been a part of these a lot of times, like, dude, you did it just because you wanted more money, because you didn't have to take them on maybe an extra day. And you could have taught what you needed to teach, like, this is ridiculous, which are making us go through.

Unknown 42:13
Yes, yes. And I don't, having studied facial acupuncture with many different people. I learned what I felt was useful. And what I felt was not useful. And sitting around listening to 12 million case studies. I'm serious. I mean, I know sometimes they'll spend a half a day just going over case studies. I like I got it after the second one. Yeah. Can we move on here, or a lot of time on history, the history of facial acupuncture, you can talk about it, 10 minutes, move on. I designed my classes as a how to class soup to nuts. That's awesome. This is what we're doing what we're doing, this is what we're doing. This is how you do it. Now, practice.

Justin Trosclair 43:00
Is there a website? Where can people find out more about this information?

Unknown 43:03
I'm so glad you asked. Justin, my website is facial acupuncture, classes.com and it's all one word visual. Acupuncture. classes.com Yes, I have a website for my practice as well, which is Gallus acupuncture.com and there's a link to my classes there as well

Justin Trosclair 43:25
spell your last name. So people who are working out can

Unknown 43:29
is g e LL. I. s very good

Justin Trosclair 43:33
Oui. If I had the qualifications to do acupuncture. This sounds like it would be an exciting class that taken that just tweaks my interest. I just think that it's pretty cool to be able that you can actually do all these things. And then the way you're talking about like the How to hands on, you know, one and done and then just get out there and start practicing and learn it for, you know, learning the intricacies and all this stuff. I really liked that idea. And I applaud you because that's all it takes a lot of effort to build these classes to market it to set all these things up on the I wouldn't even know where to begin doing that stuff but you're doing it multiple times a year so I think that's pretty awesome.

Unknown 44:10
Well, it's a labor of love I enjoy it and gets me out of my treatment room and thank you thank you. That is astute observation. And the the way the class is set up the first two days is all acupuncture the last day which I do offer as a standalone class and either in person or as a recorded webinar is the dermal roller facial copying and faithful blah shot and that is actually open to not have acupuncturist massage therapist as petitions, physical therapist chiropractors, anyone who is interested in learning facial blah and facial cupping can take that class, there's no licensure required in order to do copying or Basha.

Justin Trosclair 45:02
That's pretty cool is it gets feet wet, kind of learned about what you guys are doing. And that way we can refer to a qualified acupuncture is with confidence that we're like, right now we know you know, okay, before I let you go, I love to ask this question and see what you got. When it comes to books, blogs or podcasts. Do you have any that you secretly love and some that you feel like most people should check? Definitely check out

Unknown 45:26
I'm recording facial action docs that I

Justin Trosclair 45:33
would give to somebody like you should really read this. It'll change your life.

Unknown 45:36
Yeah, believe it or not, God, there's so many. I am an avid reader. But back when the stock market collapse here and actually the housing market. It wasn't when the stock market collapses when the housing market collapsed. And I saw a huge decline in my practice. And my patients, people were losing their jobs. I read a book by jack k field. He wrote the Chicken Soup for the Soul books. And he wrote a book called The success principles. And it's a lot of short stories about,

Unknown 46:17
Oh, geez, you know, he told stories about Colonel Sanders and how he was eight years old when he came up with this recipe for fried chicken and how Sylvester Stallone actually wrote Rocky and wanted to act in it. And all the studios turned him down because they felt like he couldn't speak. And he went from studio to studio to studio. So it's really it's a great book, and where your strengths lie, tenacity, and it was very motivational for me. So that's my book. That's my goal. I love it.

Justin Trosclair 46:53
You know, I just downloaded this book was on sale tools of Titans. from Tim Ferriss

Unknown 46:58
tools of kite Yeah,

Justin Trosclair 46:59
wasn't the mentor, tribe of mentor, a tribe of mentors, because tools of Titans This is big, thick book and then try the mentors is almost like 1011 questions from over 100 different guests that he's had on his show, from actors to entrepreneurs and all this different stuff anyway, just kind of started reading it. And it's kind of similar to this. Like, I'm a fan of those types of books where it's a conglomeration of a lot of other people's opinions

Unknown 47:24
and success stories. Yeah,

Justin Trosclair 47:24
because then it's like, then just hear one person's view, it's a lot of people's views. So it's kind of like the Bible one day is gonna, this is going to speak to you two years from now. If you reread it, something else is going to speak to you, you know,

Unknown 47:37
when you said, Who is the who is the author of the Tim Ferriss tempers, the world's changing very rapidly with social media and the way people access information. And I think that that staying on top of that is really important. having really good skills is important. Being likable as you is important. I I started reading a book called The science of likeability, which is enjoyable, but you probably can't put this on your podcast, but one that I read that I really loved, I actually listened to it is the subtle art of not living of love it love it, love it, I'm listening to it for the second time. I mean, the guy's kind of an idiot.

Unknown 48:25
I mean, if you listen to him, he you know, he's obviously is kind of an idiot. But he had written a short piece for elephant journal, believe I see it all comes together. He wrote a piece about the law of yes or no, when you're dating. Yeah, and that's what that's how I found his book. But it's just a short piece. And it resonated with me on so many levels there, there really is a wisdom that happens when you get older and you realize you only have another 20 to 30 years to live, right? You really start Well, I'm saying, right, like, you know what,

Unknown 49:06
I work for it up it you look backwards a little bit, but you, you know, you're looking at the next, you know, I've got this much time, what did I accomplish? What do I want to accomplish? What have I done wrong, it becomes very, very, very reflective. And he really kind of hit the nail on the head with, you know, people pleasing and it's kind of legacy building when you get older it's like, what's your legacy going to be what are you gonna be able to leave for the next guy that you know that point you should have accomplished what you need not necessarily accomplish what you needed to accomplish in life. But like you said, your priorities kind of changed a little bit you look beyond yourself Yeah, so well, thank thank you so much for being on the show today. And I definitely hope people will check out the show acupuncture classes.com and see you live in a city near you

Justin Trosclair 50:00
new things to talk about, of course, you can always review is give us that five star review on wherever you listen, but I got for new t shirts, you know, there's chiropractors, some of them that just like to adjust there's some like me who rehab and you know, decompression and cold laser things like that and we call us straights versus mixers, so created some mixed tour shirts, they're supposed to be kind of tongue in cheek hope you like them also the Atlas at remove the DNS, so therefore, check that out. Maybe you like that better. Today's choices. Tomorrow's health book, version two, point O is now out. We got nerve stretches, optimal calorie counter calculators a section on fasting and a bigger section on how to budget and try to get your financial life in order all the things that I talk about all the time. It's over 100 extra pages. So get it now bonus, my new hot off the presses book needless acupuncture self treatment guy for 40 common conditions is finally finished. been in the works for quite a while. Stop the hurting with no needles, our meds, your roadmap to self treat your conditions painless with needless acupuncture. It's got

pictures, it has descriptions, of course the conditions and I plan to have video tutorials soon go to the website and check it out also on the website. But in the top right. All the social media icons are right there. Whichever you'd like to follow me on. Click that button and say hello.

We just went hashtag behind the curtain and this episode has come to an end. I hope you got the right dose for your optimal life. Please spread the word about this podcast by telling to friends, sharing on social media and visit the show notes on a doctor's perspective. net to see all the references from today's guest sincere thank you in advance. You've been listening to Dr. Justin trust Claire giving you a doctor's perspective.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

About the Author
Dr. Justin Trosclair, D.C., an expert in Chiropractic Care, has been focusing on back and neck pain relief for over 12 years and has delivered treatment to more than 6000 patients. With advanced training in treating disc derangement conditions, you can count on him to keep up to date with the latest research in physical medicine for spinal pain. He has 5 years of hospital experience in China, is currently working in Germany, and had a private practice in Colorado for 6 years. Dr. Trosclair hosts a doctor to doctor interview podcast called ‘A Doctor’s Perspective‘ with over 220 episodes. During his free time he wrote 3 books. Today’s Choices Tomorrow’s Health (rebooting health in 4 categories), a Do-It- Yourself acupressure book for 40 common conditions called Needle-less Acupuncture, and a step by step guide to look like a local for Chinese dinner culture called Chinese Business Dinner Culture. If you have kids, you may be interested in his 6 series tri-lingual animal coloring book series (english, spanish and chinese).