Are Networking Referral groups Dead? Tammy Urbach explains how to maximize and craft your best…
The number 1 worldwide franchise owner of BNI, Hazel Walker, discussesbetter ways to invite guests, the GAIN profile to make 1 on 1’s productive,teaching others to be a referral machine, and author of differences of how menand women network.
The number 1 worldwide franchise owner of BNI, Hazel Walker, discusses better ways to invite guests, the GAIN profile to make 1 on 1’s productive, teaching others to be a referral machine, and author of differences of how men and women network.
BNI franchise only winner of the Hall Of Fame owner because she had the #1 franchise in the world for 13 straight months in Indiana. She was recruited to run Perth Australia and was there for 6 years before moving back to the USA just before thanksgiving.
Learn about the Givers Gain philosophy. And Now BNI has online training and an app to pass referrals.
Why do we always try to sell new invites to BNI instead of just inviting them to meet amazing other business owners. BNI and the flow of the meeting will sell itself.
One key mindset is that BNI is built for you to expand your referral network, not just sell to the members.
She goes into a Super Structured Flow of a 1 on 1 meeting. The G.A.I.N. sheet. (the Accomplishments and Interests are particularly interesting.)
Those meetings are meant for you to just shoot the breeze. Make the most out of that time by following her recommendations. Teach the other person to identify your target customer is and then how to refer them to you.
Who do you know Who…?
Why is that some of the non USA chapters have more eye doctors, dentists and alternative care doctors and therapists where as in USA those are harder to find (chiropractors are usually in the USA groups though)?
If you have multiple doctors in your office, what are the benefits of having each member in a different BNI Chapter?
Why should you screen new members especially if one clinic in town is joining lots of groups?
Why are the Asian Countries like China, Thailand, Hong Kong, India and Singapore eclipsing in growth and enthusiasm for BNI compared to Europe and North America?
Differences of men and women in networking. What are some of the traits that men have that women should adopt and vice versa?
Story telling fashion of referring business and going deep into the relationship are commonly women characteristic.
Which sex gives more qualified referrals? Which sex asks for the deal more commonly?
How can the GAIN Profile for 1 on 1’s done correctly also be translated into how you talk and market and interact with customers?
Is it appropriate to hit on the opposite sex at networking events? What are some ways for women to stand their ground if it happens to them?
Small town BNI chapters… they can work, but why be careful of kicking someone out nad keeping everyone accountable?
What has she learned about work life balance from living in Perth? She takes the last two weeks of the year as her “Thinking” time for the following year.
How to manage your calendar for great productivity?
BOOK: Whos in your room by Dr. Ivan Misner, Healing Begins in the Kitchen – how he and his wife beat cancer
Slight Edge – things that are easy to do or also easy not to do
Hazel Walker – Her book: Business Networking and Sex: not what you think How men and women network differently is based on a 12,000 person survey that took 3 years to complete.
Authentic self is important, being able to adapt to others while honoring the differences is also important.
Teach women systems to strengthen their business and their networks.
Perth, Australia and Indianapolis, Indiana
Show notes can be found at www.adoctorsperspective.net/104 here you can also find links to things mentioned and the full transcript.
Justin Trosclair 0:06
Episode 104 benign networking groups success tactics. I’m your host, Dr. Justin trust, where today we’re Hazel Walker’s perspective.
During 2017 and 2018 podcast Awards Nominated host as we get behind the curtain look at all types of doctors and guests specialties. Let’s hear a doctor’s perspective.
Welcome back again, ladies and gentlemen, always appreciate you listening this week, no doubt going to be a good one. If you have ever heard of networking groups, there’s no doubt you’ve heard of be and I it might be something to think about over the holiday season to join for 2019. So today, we’re chatting with someone who is actually the top dog for the organization. Like no one has even won this award besides her. So it’s really a phenomenal guests to have on the show. She She speaks at all the major conferences across the globe, we hear a little bit about the givers, philosophy, waste, invite people ways to maximize referrals. And the big thing I think, is the game profile sheet. It’s a way to do your one on one, it’s a very structured way to do it. And she’s also an author of a book from the differences between men and women and how they network. So we’ll talk about that. What does she found one ways to you know, gain from each gender that we can incorporate into ourselves to do better. Again, these are not big sales pitches, like the X 10 a week ago, and now be an eye. These are all things that it’s probably on your marketing radar, it’s ways to be more profitable. And it’s an important aspect of some people’s businesses. So hopefully you gained some good knowledge from this. Don’t forget, write a review, let me know on LinkedIn and I’m looking to have that contest giveaway a Bluetooth speaker. All right. Listen to implement show notes can be found a doctor’s perspective, net slash 104. Let’s go hashtag behind the curtain.
Live from China and Indianapolis. Today on the show, we have a fantastic guest. She is just coming back from living in Perth, Australia. And will tell you why. Because she’s so awesome. She was recruited there for like six years. And she has written several books, one of them that I’m interested in business networking and sex. No, it’s not what you think. And this is a book based 12,000 people survey that took three years to compete. So I think it’s gonna be a really good, we’re gonna get some good insight from this. Hazel Walker, thank you for coming to the show.
My pleasure. I love it.
Justin Trosclair 2:35
I love talking on pre chat because we get to kind of build a little rapport kind of find out what what’s your niche a little bit more and what I think the interview can go towards. And I’m excited. So I’ll let you pick which one you want to kind of go first you want to talk about women and networking and doing the best or should we bridge with the the big story and then like work into tidbits that people can take home today.
Um, but probably a good idea. That hard for me, it’s probably a good idea to bridge a little bit with the big sport, because that’s really what led to the concept of the book.
Justin Trosclair 3:08
Okay, one thing that I would have been a member for at least six years, I was the president twice I was the visitor host I knew better than the be the vice president because they had all the work to do. That was the joke we always had. Yeah. And loved it loved it loved the love that I have I always I was part of the the What do they call that the pre stage before you actually became a group as part of those, or, and that was part of the groups that were around for a while and you kind of walk in, you’re like, Oh, so you had a chiropractor for the last three years. And they just left. Okay, all right. also been a part of the parts where you go in, and it’s not really a good fit, but there’s no other places available. And so you have to make that decision. So that’s kind of my history with being I love the group. So give us a little bit of the backstory, you were being a franchise owner in Indianapolis, Indiana should say you were killing it, you’re crushing it gives you a backstory about how you live in Australia, if you don’t mind.
Well, I started MB and I much like you did as a member I was an insurance agent in 1991. And bought the BMI franchise in 1998. Now being I was on founded in 1985. And not with intention for it to be a franchise with this star groups himself. And then of course, all of the sprint one. And then it just snowballed into the franchise. So in 1998, I bought a franchise for Indiana, from another lady and began working that verse in 2001 is still my insurance agency and just became full time benign. So kind of one of the pioneers I’m one of the early pioneers of developing be an eye and which has happened sizes get developed a way it’s the franchisees that, that develop them and grow them and start to build content. So that long background allowed me to really create lot of expertise and learn a lot how people interact with one another like you I served on all the committee’s and groups of stuff. And I just got very good at it. And one of the things I started doing was building a strong team because you cannot run a successful business not have a team of people to support you. So I have really good as an entire state.
True. But I built a team of directors and ambassador and people who also wanted to help other people successful because that’s what I love about is that givers gain philosophy. And through doing all of that we have a system that measures our KPIs around the world. And all of us are measured on the exact same cape guy. Well, I held the number one position for 13 months, which has never ever been done before. And it was through holding that position for 13 months in a row and been staying up in the green for 33 months that I won an award called the Hall of Fame Award. It’s the only one like that that’s been given. So callous. Australia came along and said Frederic came along said to me because I want you to come to Australia and deep down in Indiana. I laughingly said
all right, make it work, my wife and I, I I went on about my business. And suddenly I got a phone call from a attorney who said listen, we’re working on your immigration status for Australia. Really
Justin Trosclair 6:38
maybe jumping the gun here
and so that just kind of progressive there lived until about a week ago. I hope that here
when we could go today so um yeah, back I you know, and my timings summer in Australia and it’s snowing, like busy here in India. Yeah, may
Justin Trosclair 7:00
not have been the greatest idea unless you like snow.
I probably should have waited a few more months, come back. But that’s the whole holiday thing. So really, that expertise. Traveling world has allowed me to really see how men and women do network
and build the relationships. And so that then led to the book. And I’ve traveled all over the world speaking laptop to Okay,
Justin Trosclair 7:29
yeah, I’ve noticed that on your LinkedIn and on your personal website. It’s like, oh, okay, we haven’t experienced speaker, she’s got programs available to teach this stuff. When we’re talking be and I there’s been a part of it for a while. It’s been a while, almost as long as I’ve been in it. I’ve been out of it at this point, because you know, not in America.
There’s chapters in China, just so you know, some of the biggest companies in the world are?
Justin Trosclair 7:53
Oh, well, that would be okay. I’ve got more excuses. But I will I will. I’m not in a big city, I will just put it that. I’m not in a like, but that is amazing. I didn’t realize that. And that’s probably should have known next I know my friend in Singapore, she is a big part of being I there. So it’s, it’s that’s
Justin Trosclair 8:10
I love about it. Like if I ever found one in China, where I could actually go to it as like, that’d be really fun. Because I wouldn’t know what’s going on even without speaking the language.
That’s fantastic. I do this. I have no clue what they’re saying. But I know what’s going on.
Justin Trosclair 8:23
Yeah. So where’s the interpreter? Please?
So I was curious. There’s been a It’s been a while, you know, it’s been, you know, six years from now is everything kind of stayed the same? Are there any tips that you could give that to make your bi chapter strong, because I’ve noticed, especially like an elephant, Denver, so it’s big city has lots of chapters, there’s always some kind of dynamics, like, if there’s something that we could do, as a group to always sort of get those new members to visit? And to join? I guess that’s the question they always have for you, though, right?
It is. And it’s, it’s always a bit of a challenge. Because the one thing we know that members like to try to do is when they’re inviting people to come along, is they want to sell concept of being AI to the person who’s never visited, when all you really need to do to get people to come into the room is say, I would like to introduce you to a group of people I know like and trust and who I often get referrals to, I think they would benefit from knowing you would you like to beat them? Yeah. And and you bring them in the room and you let be an ISO and I and you sit and you you meet them at the door, you introduce them to those people that you think would be valuable for them to know. And then you let them decide if be an AI is something because you don’t invite with the intention of joining, you invite with the intention of knowing the relationship. And members often get really confused about that they invite for the intention of joining. It’s like
Justin Trosclair 9:53
but getting married before you start dating.
corrected that I talked about that I say that at the book book. And I say that tomorrow, quite often, you’re asking people to marry you. And they even have haven’t had a first date yet.
Justin Trosclair 10:05
And some people like these MLM companies that sell makeup, or like juices and stuff like that, that was popular at some point. It’s a, it’s a very big feel, you gotta sell a lot of products to make up the initial be an IP. So it’s not like, do we just jump in? And they got to really consider this usually in their business budget.
Correct. And the thing they have to look at is, are they looking to sell, let’s take one of my favorite companies in Vienna, I because their philosophy is so similar is the Mary Kay organization, right? Because they’re all about the relationships and they’re all about, you know, your network. And I’d say to them, if all you wanted was the lipstick, and mascara, it’s going to take you a long time to make your money back. But if you build good relationships in this organization, you will find that people will introduce you to other people who also want to sell lipstick, and will introduce you to new customers. So what are you looking for when you’re coming to a B and I chapters you’re looking for customers? Not new product? Yeah. Right. And always look for new customers. So if I come and see you as the chiropractor, and, and you work with me, and I keep coming back, that’s not a referral every time I walk in your door, on the referral, first time I walk into your door, but I’m now a customer. So you’re looking for next new customer. And that’s a mindset that really shift for people who join me and I you’re not looking for the repeat sell, you’re looking for new customers.
Justin Trosclair 11:37
And I’ve always said, for me for as a chiropractor, like look, y’all don’t know what I do, you may have had a somebody in the past in the group, you may have had a bad or good experience. I was like, Look, you just need to experience what I do. That way you can refer me. And that was one of the like, the tactics that I always try because, you know, it’s like a mortgage broker or the investment that that poor person they got to be in, you’re not using for a while before they can get the trust to give them the retirement account. Like That one’s a hard one to me. You know, chiropractic, a doctor and the doctor a dentist, know that level of trust is a little bit lower. Like you, you’ve been in business for a while. You clean teeth every day you do cavities every day. I’ll go check it out. I gotta, I gotta get my teeth clean this week anyway. Oh, good.
I have the ability. Yeah, I have the but that’s a transaction by transaction where you what you’re looking for is the new customer. So it’s that I committed try you out? Because now I can give you testimonials. But have you taught me who your ideal client is? And have you taught me how to introduce the ideal client to you? How do we open that conversation? How do I make the introduction? Hey, taught that to me, because if you haven’t, then I’m just running around hoping someday I run into someone that needs a chiropractor. Because you hadn’t taught me what the clues are taught me how to open the conversation. You haven’t taught me who your ideal client it is. And I’m walking around an educated so often DNI members get really low value referrals until they take the time to train their network, how to find this for them. So finding people to invite into the
Justin Trosclair 13:19
Yeah, so that’s where your 32nd commercial could be come in handy. Especially if you’ve been doing it for a while you’re like okay, how much more can I talk about headache so much more can talk about a root canal or eyeglasses Oh, maybe I should actually take this time I don’t have time to do one on ones with everybody this week that takes time as well so I can educate them on what they’re looking for a little bit better go my commercial true
correct when you’re when
you’re giving me more I get get
a my ideal client are people who are they these guys need to be in real top physical shape and they entire practice a lot Cudi know same soccer Who do you know that balls or you know, starting to teach me who what you’re looking for? Who do you know who is a great way to add referral? Who do you know who runs marathons them all the time? Having back problems at the end of their run? That’s a great conversation for me to have them because I can help them make could wonder
time by having regular adjust. Right.
Justin Trosclair 14:27
Somebody has done a few of these these
great, great examples. We had a such a hard time when I was there. For like dentist and I doctors and things like that chiropractors were a diamond doesn’t in these groups. But it seemed like the other medical professions seem difficult. Have you found in Australia or an Indiana? That not to be the case?
Yeah, it is difficult in Indiana, I also own for franchises in bank in British Columbia, Canada. And I can tell you that our chapters there have a lot more of the medical profession in them. And and part of that is because of the health care system. Doctors in Indiana like doctors, dentists, all those, they get referrals from doctors, they’re used to the company’s referring, they get referrals from all kinds of places, and they become reliant upon that. On the other hand, if you go to Canada and some of the other countries Doc, there, they want to keep their practices open and running well, they’ve got to go out find some of their own business. Because it’s a it’s a different medical care program. So they’re all they’re working more effectively. We’re also seeing more and more private doctor’s concierge doctor. And concierge doctors now are starting to sit in maybe these groups are good for me to get in so people can carry my word of mouth message. Yeah. So it’s the health care system that allows but I love I love about Vancouver is all the different alternative care that in a chapter the biggest power teams are made up of the alternative care in those groups now. And what do you consider alternative care? Is the integrative the natural path, the odd, the massage therapist, the hypnosis that hypnotherapist? It’s all of those professions that come together more than just the regular MD.
Justin Trosclair 16:31
Wow, what a Power Team I doctors.
Yeah, they’re amazing. They’re really amazing to look at this one guy and one of the chapters and Vancouver that does brain scans and he released in the brain scan to tell you where some of your health problems are coming from, like very, and we just had we just had a cuddle coach fly. Look at that, that he’s a certified cuddle coach. So you know, seeing more and more of that whole profession can more than just the chiropractors now.
Justin Trosclair 17:00
So here’s a logistics question. And I think it’s allowed at least, if I’m a chiropractor, let’s say whatever a physical therapy clinic I got, for physical therapists, it’s a pretty big operation. And all of a sudden, I’m like, mean, we want more business. Could you put? Is it I advise to put all for in different chapters and lock up an area? Or does it become hard to like, pass referrals? Because it doesn’t really matter? Because everybody has their own sphere of influence outside of the clinic?
So you know the answer, that’s exactly like, go ahead and put one in every chapter that you can that’s in your vicinity, or where you want to bring customers from, and they own network, my network and your network, even if we work together are different, okay, because I have a dip social sphere, I have different contexts fear, I have different family life, different clubs I belong to, so I’ll bring my own network the table, and bring my own clients and
Justin Trosclair 17:53
lots of groups allowed that they noticed like, Hey, you know, we talk we, you know, couple different presidents we have, we have happy hour, once a month, because we just want to make sure everybody’s doing good. And all the different groups and whatnot. And they’re like, yeah, there’s this physical therapy clinic, and we don’t really like them. Like, they’re not that good, you know? So, but the like they’re trying to get in every group. Can they just be like, yeah, they’re already into if our you don’t let them in, it’s not the greatest clinic, blah, blah, blah, is that allowed, or you have to be a little more strategic into why you would deny someone,
the chapters have every right to choose or decline in a position that we really don’t manage. We let the chapters to it, but we tell them and more today than ever before. Do your background work? Have they had complained? What is their licensing look like? Look, check their social media? Well, you know, check with other chapters that are members of other chapters, check with them. Do your background work, because we do get people who come in who are not legitimate. Wow. And and we have to pay attention to that. So we tell the chapter more today than ever before. Do this easy. Google every person. See what comes up and check their lessons? Yeah, yeah, check there. Yeah, make sure their license to do what they say they’re doing.
Justin Trosclair 19:11
Yeah. Good. We’ve had some bad contractors every now and then
you’re like, Oh, absolutely. It seems to be one of the biggest one. Yeah,
Justin Trosclair 19:19
I hate to call them out. But you know, all right. Well, let’s bridge. Okay. We’ve got two different countries. Three, actually. Are you noticing? Is there much difference between people in the way that they network between, say, Australia, Canada and America? Are you seeing big differences that you’d want to point out, or maybe that Americans are doing that they should be doing because these other countries are doing better?
I’ll tell you the Asian countries, eclipsing and I mean that in every sense of eclipsing the Western countries culture, because it’s very cultural. They’re they’re very, they’re excited about being either excited about the education and learning and the do again, and indeed, is just great.
Bounce, like, Can you keep up? There’s no way an America would get on top of the traffic lights now, because you can’t keep up with India, and Asia, China. China is just growing like wildfire. Now they’re launching chapters with 100 hundred and 20 members now.
Justin Trosclair 20:18
This culture, they keep me
Yeah, ready. So I can imagine like a referral network. Oh, my gosh, like, it’s got to be out of control how much like scorekeeping and I got it, I gotta find you somebody worthwhile, because you gave me one. And we, and and they attract big companies, and they passed big referrals. And, and they’re doing really, really well, where the US
Europe, we we’ve been doing this for 35 years, right? We’ve been in this business and doing it 2030 years, where they’re just coming into it, and they’ve been in it for the last 17 years. So the excitement, there is far higher than the excited level here. They are also far more willing to get out there do the work and bring people in they they love it. So we do see that cultural difference. Like if I asked my members here to sit in member Success Program for three hours, we get a little pushback, but in in Thailand, they sit in their training six to eight hours, and 11. And they fill it up 100 200 at a time.
Justin Trosclair 21:28
Like this is the cheapest education I’ve ever gotten.
Yeah, it’s it’s excellent. And and and the other things, it’s changes, we’ve automated more stuff, like we have big university now. So you can do your MSP online. And they just come to the local orientation. Right. So we still do the face to face but have online now a really high quality online getting off to do now. That’s changing, a lot of automation is coming and we have an app now for passing referrals. Next month, we will be able to pass referral global through the referral for somebody in China and you’re sitting in Kansas City, you can pass it,
Justin Trosclair 22:05
you know, that’s great, because some people it’s really was hard to get off for like that three hour block in the middle of your day and all that and now you can just do it at night. and be done with it afterwards. Yeah, that’s great. Good job.
Justin Trosclair 22:18
our goal, everyone be successful? Or is that our job is to help you be growing your business. Because if I can help you grow your business, you’ll help someone else grow their business. And that makes a difference.
Justin Trosclair 22:33
Yeah, you get a lot of pushback in the other countries have, I’m sure you’ve heard it being the fees are so high, they just, they just want to take your money, and what are you getting in return? And I create one of these groups on my own and blah, blah, blah, you know,
I know you’ve heard it,
I heard it. I hear it more. I hear it more in Australia and India in in us than I hear it in Asia and India. Because one of the things we noticed in in the Eastern cultures is that Miss classes emerging, yeah, it’s newer, younger, fresher, and it’s emerging. And they’re less jaded, and they’re happy because they’re getting return. I typically at complaint, mostly people who aren’t willing to do the work, like build trust and build relationships and people who aren’t being successful, because they’re not doing the education or whatever. It’s usually the people who are getting a return for their money aren’t complaining about the money they’re spending, right. And it’s highly undervalued. I mean, the average value of a seat in Indiana $85,000 will return that the members are getting far it closes any return that we as an organization getting Yeah, because the US and Canada has got the rates in the world,
lowest, we have the lowest rates in the world, we’ve been much to the unhappiness and the rest of the world. We’re now working to catch up.
It’s, it’s been really the lowest in the world. So we get complaints. And we look at it go, you know, other people are paying 2345 times $700 to be a member in Indiana, it’s 1600 dollars to be a member in Australia.
Justin Trosclair 24:17
Man. You know, it’s interesting to in probably India, you know, Asia, China, there’s a lot of Who do you know, that really matters. And if you came from like a poor family, you’re trying to break freeze, like, Look, I don’t know who the CEO of the hospital is, I’m never going to be able to bridge that gap. But you know, all these other middle class businesses, all of a sudden, you have a huge network that you’ve been trying to run these elbows even trying to flatter all these bosses and you never get any worse. And all of a sudden you got this event every week. Or the whole point is to rub elbows with same like similar people. Like that’s gotta be me. That’s a big piece.
Yeah, it’s very it’s it’s very Yeah, it is a very, very powerful piece, because you got a middle classes emerging. And you’re excited about this opportunity today. Where
I don’t think the middle class gets excited in Indiana or new us or some of the other countries is is they do in Asia, I travel all over I’ve been a good the China, Thailand, Malaysia, Vietnam, Korea, Japan, all of those training and, and speaking and interacting with the members. And it’s one of the things I love is the excitement, the the pure joy and excitement of what they’re doing.
Justin Trosclair 25:32
Right. Maybe you want to go find a chapter just experienced. I don’t want to bite size in China. Yes. Do it.
Did that I can hook you up with the National Director zero. If you’re interested in Chinese.
Justin Trosclair 25:48
are after a series
Well, let’s, let’s transition because I don’t want to get people to board with this raw Robbie and I stuff. If they’re like, Well, can you just move on to some other topic or whatever. But I think this is great. Because we’ve had other types of groups on the show before like, why you should network? How do you do as commercial. So this is definitely in the wheelhouse of the show, from time to time. So but you kind of have a men and women are different, we network different, I would think women are probably somewhat better at these big events, thinking bigger events, but it might be the same and just a smaller chapter as well. But what are some things that you found that you’d like to share today.
But there’s a couple things that are really, no one was surprised to find out based on the survey of 12,000 men and women not being not being I members, but men and women all over the world companies and other organizations.
Men and women are different, and no one was surprised by that. And actually, we weren’t even surprised by how we’re different to some degree.
Because there’s all these basic differences that you understand what was really educational for me was how men and women go about their network. And things like men tend to have large network so their feet wide and one foot deep, where women will have a network that’s three feet wide, but some deep deep, because they go deeper into relationship with one another than men have a tendency to do miss have a tendency to just add keep adding to their network where we want to know the people in their network. Yeah. And, and they know more permission of the people in their network, they will know the name of their dry cleaner and the spouse of the dry cleaner and the people that they interact with. They know but if you ask the husband, he he doesn’t know.
Justin Trosclair 27:44
I know, dry cleaners, you need someone I can hook you up, but I don’t remember their name, I just know where they’re located, extra thing.
And even that even the housekeeper the you know, the wife will know all kinds of things about the housekeeper’s and their family and the things are going on. And that hasn’t just those. This is the housekeeper’s name. Yeah. And so it’s typical of how we do things as women go deeper into the relationship. Women also have a tendency when they’re referring business to do it in a storytelling fashion.
Right. So a guy will say, hey, you need to talk to David Clarke over here, he’ll be able to sell you a new car. And we’re woman will say, oh, listen, I went and bought a new car from David Clarke or I took my mother in to buy a new car from David Clarke. And you know, he was so great with us. He showed us which car was the best. He didn’t try to upsell us. And she’ll tell you the whole story. You should talk to grab. So she’s doing an inspiring Kelly fashion, where a guy will say who this person? is it affecting that it often does, because women give your referrals, but the results that they get have a tendency to be hired. more qualified.
Justin Trosclair 28:58
Oh, that’s okay.
Because told the story. Yeah. And so they have a tendency to be more qualified. So they they actually refer at a better quality level, but they refer left because they want to make sure their networks going to be taken care of. Now, you got to keep in mind also, there’s behavior styles. And this is a bell curve at this not everybody, not every woman’s like this. And not every man’s. It’s a bell curve. It’s in jail. were men say go do this. I also we learned that men have a tendency to be transactional, you want to do the deal. Like I want to sell for this, I want to keep buying from me by 45 from you need to be my customer, women have a tendency to be relational, hey, let’s get to know each other before I buy from you. Let’s get to know each other before you buy for me, I might take time. But one men do phenomenally well that women I really coach women a lot around they have to learn to do. Men will ask for the deal. They’ll say, hey, do you want to buy? Hey, do you want we want to do this where women will give you all the information and then make for you to make the decisions without us.
So you know, I coach women a lot around you have to ask for what you want. And you have to use set of subtle. So the point of the book really was not to say men are bad, and they need to do this and women are bad. And they need to do this. It’s really about let’s build the bridge. So we can support this so much that I as a female have learned from how men do business. And there’s so much that men can do learn how we business and bridge that gap between us.
Justin Trosclair 30:41
I can recall being at these new more like a chamber of commerce event where there’s a 200 people in a room, and you just kind of like go in and go get them is like, ah, start giving me your business card.
That’s kind of what I noticed was a lot of the guys it was, you know, I’m Bob, give them a card. And then you’re like, oh, okay, biopsy. And you know, here’s Jill, Oh, good. Joe, Joe wants to have a conversation. Let’s have a conversation, you know, and we talked for a few minutes and you leave it at the end of the night. You’re like, all right, I talked to some good people, and they tend to be, you know, someone’s like, Oh, it’s more of the girls that tend to connected better with that night. And then you know, there’s a couple of guys are like, maybe I’ll follow up with those guys as well. But I don’t know, it just seems like you said this the relationship part. And at least in my business, I feel like you need to have build a relationship to, you know, get people to win them over to possibly get a referral and all that type of stuff.
And definitely what we teach inside VDI, but that’s so I teach time, because I do Twitter sales teams, I do all kinds of stuff. But one of the things I see just go push your car around, you’ve got a conversation, build a bit of relationship, and especially if you want to do Vincent, when you’ve got to show interest.
Justin Trosclair 31:53
Exactly, Oh, I know sometimes, like I’d have fun. If I was in a group didn’t know a lot of people and you like man, it seems like everybody knows each other as like, Okay, I’ve got a goal, I’m going to give out five cards, you know, something like that a small group. And I’m a Goofy, Goofy.
And so that was kind of like my personality a little bit in the groups and stuff like they would get it based on the tag line and, and whatever. So sometimes I just make a joke about the card or just try to break the ice with a little bit of humor work my work the room a little bit with it. And even if it didn’t have a lot of punch that first time, you know, the next time you went and saw the same people, they kind of remembered you a little bit more so that you can have that better conversation the second time around. Very true. And then we also teach and I believe saying this from a lot. If you don’t do one to one meetings, you’ll fail because standing in front of a room full of people week after week assigned but the trust that when we have these one to one conversations and find common ground, common interests, reasons we want to help each other. It’s it’s the one to one where the gold is when the one to one done well, not, hey, we’re having a beer pong games. Yeah, that not going to generate business for you. But if you can talk about what are your goals? What are your achievements? You know, what is interests that you have? What other networks do you belong to? What skill sets do you have that I don’t know? Who’s your ideal client, though, that’s the place where the gold is. And that’s where you start to generate bigger and bigger referrals is through those one to one. And taking that time to do that. And then people go on too busy, I’m too busy. Well, that’s where the relationship building,
Justin Trosclair 33:36
do you all recommend, if you’re really busy just to do like a lunch? Well, one on one over lunch or something like that, or, and a lot of times they want to do it like during business hours, but
old lunches fine. In the morning for a cup of coffee before you go into the offices five in the evening, add a half a cup of coffee, or it’s perfectly okay to have a drink after just make sure you’re working, you’re doing a one to one, use the gains profile, your goal is to move the visibility phase of relationship down to the profitability phase of the relationship. The chapter go through all uses visibility, credibility, profitability. And that’s not going to happen quickly. It’s not going to happen quickly. And if all you do is show up at the meeting for 90 minutes a week, it’s going to happen when you taking the time to do that one to one
Justin Trosclair 34:25
question for you have 100 people in a meeting? My goodness, correct? Wait, okay, random question. hundred people how they stick this in 90 minutes?
Well, what I learned in China and some of the other countries is one of the things they don’t do, which takes a lot of time in the Western world is they don’t do breakfast.
Right. So there’s there’s no food going around. And waiting on waitresses and waiting on food, people eating while are talking. And that doesn’t happen there. They do that at the end there meeting is 90 minutes of the business and breakfast will be after the meeting. And they have a formal burrows. So their meetings are really about two hours long. They get there early. May we use use the app to pass these roles. They also gives the referrals a tournament at the front desk and they let people know in advance this how many referrals? So they’ve modified the agenda? They still get done in your in?
Justin Trosclair 35:25
Yeah, they it’s very, very efficient.
Justin Trosclair 35:30
Yes. Because I’ve been a part of a 40 person group one time I was like, oh, my goodness, this is never going to end.
They got better, they got better. But for a while there was a learning curve.
We’d have to teach them how to be efficient with the agenda. There’s changes, which I find to be more that I don’t need to conserve 30 seconds to stand up and do what I need. Yeah, exactly. I need to do one to ones with you to teach you that.
Justin Trosclair 35:59
There we go back to the ones on one real quick. So do have like a paper because I know, it’s very easy to just sort of talk about the weather or make the meeting all about you. And that really exchange conversation very well. Is there like a form that they have like specific questions, and you can be kind of robotic with it if you want to to make sure that gets done
correctly? Well, there were, there were three different first one we tell every member you need to do. And because you need to know these things about your notes are kings profile, and gains exchange, the game changes. I need to know what are the goals that you’re trying to achieve? Because this is how we help each other? How can I help you achieve your goal? What are your goals? What are your business goals? Tell me a personal goal
is important. The next one is accomplishments tell me things that you’ve accomplished in your business and in your personal life that you’re really proud of this is easy for guy and you have a tendency to do this, Who the hell is a difficult one for the women because we have a tendency not to look at things that we do accomplishments. They’re just saying we do. So women have to think about it more. So I tell them they need to work on this game. Prior to sitting down with someone. So accomplishments. Like I have one friend who’s completed 10 Iron Men and cheek generally but complete triathlons. And she’s representing Australia, in the UK, and
she’s a business coach. Does that sound like the kind of professional you want to work with? That kind of person very often that kind of background?
Justin Trosclair 37:33
yeah. As a business coach. Yeah. Well, that’s a personal stuff that I’m telling you about not even a business stuff that people want to do business with their? Ok, I see. Right? So I need to know your accomplishments. And one again, so file is what are you? What are the things that you’re passionate about? beyond your business, when you’re not doing business what you love doing? Because if we can find common interest there, this is how we build report accomplishments, or how I build your credibility, we’re not passing you referrals, but interest is how you and I build rapport with one another. Find our passion. The next is in for networks. Where do you network? And not talking? is at work? I’m talking about? What religious organization to the lucky what sporting organizations do you belong to? What professional organizations do you belong to mom? Where do you spend time meeting and know among groups? Yeah, parent teacher of my, one of my bigger networks was the Parent Teacher Association. I’d been in it for years, and was well connected there. So that’s important. Because that’s how we connect one another. If you say to me, nope, I go to my office, I never leave my office, I come to a benign meeting, then I go to my office, I never leave my I don’t network.
Justin Trosclair 38:52
Yeah, he probably not doing a lot of value to to me. So I’m not going to spend a lot of time trying to develop that relationship. I’m looking to develop the relationships with other people who is things I do and that are passionate about their life. Yeah. And then the next one is skills, what are the skills to have
gone your work
I can use to support you help you, you can help me or I can introduce you to other people that might need that skill set. Like Well, I want to talk to someone with that skill set. For instance, one of the skill sets I have and that I love, don’t get too much now because I’ve traveled but I really good at obedience training large dogs,
dogs that most people are afraid of, I love training and be in training. And always trained to the point that’s all I need to do is hand signals. Wow. To get them to to behave. They were always in it. And I like Rottweilers, pit bulls, bass
Justin Trosclair 39:51
to best dogs. People are afraid. Because, you know, people, Golden Retrievers that are eating your pouch, people would say, hey, so I told him retriever eight, my cat, can you tell me what I can do to get him to stop eating furniture? And I could support them? Because it wasn’t about training. The dog was about training the people. There is no bad dog who’s just bad owners.
Justin Trosclair 40:17
They’re not doing their part that makes the bed dog behave.
Yeah, exactly. So you to the owners, so people will introduce you to other people that had big dogs and make those connections for me. So knowing your other skill set brings value to your network, like podcast, our first one and then our other than, yes, you know how to podcast? I am good at did you teach it to me? I really want to do it. Okay. Right. Yeah. So that’s a skill set you bring to the table that do not have that’s valuable. After that, then you go to once you have a relationship, then you can go to also to the business interview, where, who’s your ideal client? What is your ideal client? Do? What are they? Like? How do you want me to introduce you how to open the conversation. So now I’m teaching me all of that tube? That’s been overlooked one,
Justin Trosclair 41:07
see. And I think we don’t do that, right. Sometimes we just go in there, trying to shoot the breeze for a few minutes built sides, hopefully. And then you go back home, and you’re just like, what didn’t really do much. But when you have a system, like he just talked about, look, she gave you a lot of information. Just now that were even if you weren’t part of a big group, but you like yeah, I already kind of do these quote one on ones I just didn’t know. That’s what they were, you know, had a term for that. Now you have kind of like a blueprint that might make your meetings even more efficient. And you can both of these, like, wow, I can really send this person some business this next week to week or two. While that’s top of mind.
Well think about you understand the gains profile about your customers. Oh, man, what if you knew what some of your customers goals were or some of their accomplishments that they were proud of? Or maybe you knew what passionate about when they’re not worried? If you can learn a game tonight profile? Did I asked him a simple question. And I have one client who’s taken the gains profile and every one of his music teacher have completed against profile and put it up on their websites, because this is how students are able to pick the right teacher.
Justin Trosclair 42:16
Ah, very interesting.
So he’s taking it to a whole different level, the Gainesville file is really powerful. Women like to start with the interest if you’re going to do it with a woman. Start with what are you passionate about when it comes to your business? When you love about your business, go to her interest in her heart and let her talk about why she’s doing what she’s doing. With guys. I happily go to accomplishments and they’re happy to talk about those things right away. Yeah, yeah, they can they can rattle them off.
Justin Trosclair 42:48
Yep. 13 months straight. I’m the only one in the world
boys better watch out.
Exactly. said I am the queen of networking.
Justin Trosclair 42:59
Is it like that? Okay, and that, and I don’t know if you did that before. But when you were talking about in the book, a man will be easy to say that you might have been more more timid. And now you’re like, No, no, I gotta own it. It’s important. And it’s true. So why not just own it better? Okay, go for it. Oh, man. Good stuff today on this podcast. One thing you notice guys are weirdos. Let’s just be honest. I got some weirdos up here. And they don’t treat women very good sometimes. And we learned that. Yeah, most women have figured this out of this point. Oh, you’re a networking group guys being groups. Is there a way like to for a woman to navigate that a little bit better so that she doesn’t have to feel slimy afterwards?
Well, the first thing she has to learn to do is speak up. Okay.
We there in this survey, we had this one question that this is anything you’d like to? It’s just an open question. And so one woman put I hate networking. Because men always hitting on me. There you go. Another woman put I wear a fake wedding rings, men will stop hitting on me. And another one that has been never take me serious. They’re always looking at my my breath instead of in my eyes. And in the fourth comment, run into those three said it was from a guy said, I love networking is a great place to pick up women.
Justin Trosclair 44:25
So he just made true the three things it’s driven had to just sit at the reason they made it is the reason he loves it. It’s an appropriate it’s this is business networking. That’s the title of the book, networking, right? business, networking and sex and sex is between the sexes. Sex is not a verb. It’s a noun, and it’s between the sex. And so business networking means you treat it like business. And I say to women, and it’s someone’s being appropriate, stop, bring it to their attention, say that’s an inappropriate comment. That is not the right thing to say I remember one time having a conversation with the guy. And he totally was not keeping eye contact he was to the other set of eyes. And I just thought
I stopped and asked minute, a minute. So it’s probably just a second to look some people. I’m sorry, I missed that. So you went on vacation. Wow. And I was waiting for you to return. I wasn’t offended by it, because it’s just the weapon. And that’s it. If you want to have a business relationship with me, you have to pay attention here. And he apologized. And when when we became friends, and we were able to work past that, but most women fume about it but never speak up about it.
And that’s probably one of the biggest keys I say to women, you have to make it stop right there going to inappropriate comments. I don’t appreciate that, that kind of a comment. Women have to feel safe having one to one foot guys, but guys needed to save having one to one with men to I mean with with women, they have to steal that women aren’t going to be for patient. So it’s two weeks three, we both have to behave professionally. And professional means we’re not making off color comments. We’re not making these to come in. So we’re not looking at people in appropriately. We’re dressing like it’s a business meeting and not like we’re going to a nightclub that’s put it in when
it’s it’s just raising your level of professionalism and respect. It’s about respect. And we’re not going to I will tell you be and it does have a zero tolerance for sexual harassment, or racism, or any kind of thing would be hurtful to a person with zero tolerance will move you out in a heartbeat. Wow,
that’s good. Especially these days, really? Very specially. But
Justin Trosclair 47:01
yeah, well, that’s good. Because that, you know, you see these things at the groups and you can kind of see sometimes we’re like a girl looks trapped. Like, how do I do I step in? Because she handled herself. And you know, I’m not a you just, you just go interrupt the car.
To a pretty intense over here, just thought I would join the conversation say How’s it going?
Justin Trosclair 47:22
Yeah, cuz I’m not Superman, but you can just see this lady’s face and you just like, Oh, poor lady. How long is this going to last? Because you know, the guy, he’s not the first time the drunk guy at the party is being awkward. And you know, like, you’re in the same town. It’s not like a brand new city, you know what I mean?
Correct. And, and, you know, one of the things I say to members and people time word of mouth is always working. It may not be working in your favor.
That is true. Because if you have a reputation people are talking about and they’re talking about you. And you might not know why your business isn’t growing. It’s specifically because of your behavior.
Justin Trosclair 48:01
There we go. Okay, rounding up here. Small Town, big town, medium sized town, if you have less than, say, 15,000 people in your town? Is it gonna be tough to start like a big group or does though, or what your thoughts
but not tough, because draw people from other errors. People don’t just come from the town, they come from towns around. Usually where there’s a small town, there’s other small towns around and they’ll all come together. So we have some chapters with 30 4050 members that are sitting in a small town biggest challenge you have in small towns, the being able to hold each other accountable. Because they get worried that all we can’t post this. As you know, he’s really well known in the town and if we kick it mouth, and I’ve got to see him every day goes my church. And so you know, there’s they have a little bit more. Yeah, a struggle with accountability sometimes then this big city chapter.
One thing that beyond that, that’s about it. One
Justin Trosclair 49:03
thing I like to ask before we we wrap up today, his homework violence, it’s a big thing in life, we tend to work of we overwork and we don’t play enough. Are you able to handle that? And if so, what some secrets or a secret?
You know, that’s one of the things I really absolutely loved about being in Perth, Australia, because the Australians wouldn’t they constantly you Americans. And I’ve heard this from Europeans to you Americans live.
Like you work, work, work, work, work, but you don’t live life and you be holidays. And you don’t you just working all the time. On the other hand, in Australia, they go we work to live. So you know, in first the mall closes at 530.
On Saturday, it was and they’re out living life and family and taking long holidays and spending time with each other. not spending all their time working their family is not their fellow employees. It’s their family. So it’s one of the things I’ve really worked hard for my life is to be conscious of when I’m working. And when I am looking down. So I typically have a morning routine where I get up and I do my meditations. And I spend some time acclimating and then being with me, and then going out and doing the work. And I build time in for my holidays. And so I take holidays, I did point where I spent 10 days in a row, just private. Me and myself and I and a couple friends were there. So we went swimming elephants and things. So I built it. And there are ways to build that in and still get your work done. Right. So in America, we have a tendency to be four day weekend, people, we don’t take trips. They take four day weekend, right? So my daughter are going to Las Vegas for new you the four day weekend. You have to you have to, here’s the secret doesn’t put it on your calendar, you can’t say we’re hoping to do it, you’ve got to do it. Because some of the island is a terrible place to live your dreams. A terrible place. So you put on your calendar, I am taking one week all here. And I’m taking one week off here. And even if that means you just go to the neighboring town and rent a hotel, do that. Yeah. Because if you don’t take time off, you don’t get things done. And at the end of the year, I take the last week or two of the year. And that’s the time when I do think key. So I’m going to gain reflective thinking. That’s my thinking time. What am I going to do for the next year? What have I done? Who am I being a world what word I want to develop next? Yeah, I’m thinking two weeks and you have to take thinking time is my reflective time.
and reflect on it yesterday and
Justin Trosclair 52:02
today. Here we go. And we’ve had it put it in your calendar covered this on other podcast episodes if y’all if you listen to the any of the past when they always near the end of the interview, they have these and especially like doctors, they man Monday through Friday, oh, that’s tough word. Okay, Wednesday through Tuesday, you still get your week, it’s a half week, there’s a you can work a little bit in the morning, you know, on vacation the rest of the day, you’re free to do what you need to do if you have like, you know, when those online jobs where you can’t really you know, you need to have do a little bit email check in or something like that. So what you’re saying makes absolute sense to just if you don’t know how to do it, you got to talk to some people and figure that out so that you can, you know, not hurt your business but still have that that vacation that you need to recharge think and all of a sudden you just said like the last two weeks of the year.
Correct. And when I was writing the book, I was complaining, I didn’t have time. And my business coach opened up paper one. And he went flipping through it. And he goes, just what I thought and I said john really busy, right? And he goes, No, you haven’t even put write a book on your counter. You haven’t blocked anytime out for your personal life, or your right life. us busy.
So I learned to put everything on my calendar. This is my workout time. This is my yoga time. This is my so I do it. It’s an appointment with me.
Justin Trosclair 53:20
Yeah. You know, I learned that was a trick that I learned was writing a book and podcasting and doing different things. And so I realized, like, I could spend all day on one thing, but my time is better spent in my block of time. Do this for a couple hours. Do this for a couple hours this for a couple hours. Now you’ve done a little bit of everything. So in like a week, these all these projects are done. Instead of maybe getting into all three of them at all, because you spend way too much time on one project does seem to be helpful for me.
That’s brilliant. That’s brilliant idea.
Justin Trosclair 53:52
So okay, last fun question. It’s a fun one favorite books, podcast. If you listen to them. phone apps, you didn’t want to leave the guest with
my favorite podcast is lore l or he
could just I love it. It’s the guys brilliant yet they’re using now on Amazon. He’s doing original movie clips. But or is very entertaining for me. But it’s also very educational because it is about the Lord of the worlds right. There’s this fable or this myth and he goes into story and he does all the research pet is quite engaging. So I really like that one because I liked my podcast sometimes just for my downtime and helps me think and be creative. My favorite app. I have many, but you know I’m going to go to audible boom, because I love audiobooks. Good choice that fits right into
Justin Trosclair 54:53
the podcast in there, I think.
Yeah, podcasts and audiobooks are my thing. And now I’m eating a variety of books, who’s in your room? By Dr. Ivan Meisner is brand new, it’s really really good. So
been gifted with what I’m reading.
He that’s his primary job. Now he’s the CEO of the company and he writes books. So this one he’s written with a couple of the guys is not really be and I consent, but it is
empowering in your life, like who’s in your room, feel out. So that’s the book that I’m really into at the moment.
Justin Trosclair 55:33
He did Dr. Meisner, did he beat the cancer that he had cancer right and he beat it?
Yeah, yeah, he actually he and his spouse have written a book called The Meisner plan. And the health plan that he used to be this prostate cancer, all holistic all through diet supplements and holistic. So chiropractic even be part of that, though, yes, he and and she also had breast cancer, and did absolutely no traditional anything well, and has overcome that. And so that that’s been very, very powerful. Crystal, they’ve written a book device, they’re pulling,
Justin Trosclair 56:13
okay, well, I ended on that, but that’s actually a positive note, they both survived it, and we’re able to take care of it. Any other books before I before we, we wrap up?
You know, there’s a someone just gave me this one. And I’m starting just starting to read it because great leaders train teach other great leaders. Right, right. And so this, this book has been pretty impactful. And it’s called leadership and self deception,
leadership and self deception. It’s, it’s actually excellent. And then the other one that you and I have been speaking about a lot today has the slight edge, ah, fight edge, things that are easier, also easy not to do and be an eye and networking is a slight edge activity. It’s, it’s easy to stand up every week in your meeting. And it’s also easy not to Yeah, it’s easy to get up in the morning and go and it’s also easy, anything easy to do is also easy not to do, and less than 5% of the people in business are willing to do the thing.
Justin Trosclair 57:22
That’s a shockingly low number.
It’s a shockingly low number but the slight edge I if I’m coding you that’s the required reading.
Justin Trosclair 57:31
There we go. I like that and how can people get in touch with you contact you You got any websites that you want to direct people to
you go to blog big calm
and read a lot of my clients there you can also go to he’s a walker calm
and Hazel at be nice calm is my email address.
Justin Trosclair 57:58
Right? This has been so so good. I mean I’ve really enjoyed it. I like picking professionals brains and you brought some really good information, really appreciate your openness to given us some of these little nuggets of information to make our networking better. Nick said really appreciate you being on the show.
Justin Trosclair 58:20
That wraps up another episode want to remind everybody that we have some great affiliate links available if you’re into instrument assisted soft tissue manipulation, we’ve got the edge tool and we got the hot grips saves you about 10% also with the edge you’ve got the like blood pressure cuff restrictions system, you’ve got the G sweet inexpensive Mr. In case you’d like them cash practice. If you want to know what hosting us for podcasting, blueberry, pure VPN, it’s one of those ones I use to help keep my payments secure as well as access the internet more safely. You’ve got the primal paleo grass fed protein bone broth style, save 10% on that no sugar, allergy free, gluten free, dairy free all those types of things mentor box get taught by the author, we got set for set for those floss bands. And you may have heard about on one of the episodes really like those in the Amazon products that you might want. Click the link in the show notes pages. And of course, I got my own electric acupuncture pin to go with the needle acupuncture book time time, you know have a bundle set bringing them all together for a great price. also have the free downloads at a doctor’s perspective, net slash blueprints. And more lately I’ve been doing is substituting a fifth one like I’ve done a neat and depend on the guest, I might do a different type. So check back there. So all those resources can be found a doctor’s perspective, net slash resources. There’s also t shirts at.net slash t shirts, put up some new designs from time to time, like making lemons out of lemonade, shrimp, oh boy, plus all the Chiropractic and podcast swag that you could want. If you have any ideas for guests, please send an email Justin at a doctor’s perspective. net, I’d love to hear who you think would be good or a profession that you may not have heard yet. If you can send me review that’s dot net slash subscribe, Apple, Google stitcher Android devices, you just click that button it’ll take exactly that a page you need to you can write a review, hopefully a five star review. I said it does help for other people to discover what we’re doing here. And we’ve got over 100 episodes is gonna be like our third year, super excited. We’re going a little mini series like we’ve been doing, which has been fun. I hope you’ve enjoyed them as well. That’s that’s the feedback I’ve gotten. And one thing I haven’t really talked about too much is the doctor’s perspective. NET slash support page, you’re about to host a cup of coffee, go for it. If you want to pledge a little higher fee, there’s buttons for that there’s even monthly recurring for those who feel like wow, this is like the cheapest mentor coach program I’ve ever seen because you interview so many different kinds of doctors and and have been able to implement things that I’ve heard and it works. So monthly recurring payments, which also you can get you my books for free t shirts for free. The first book, you know that deals with health and exercise, getting on a diet, getting your financial health and order as well. things to learn in China, you know that books is available as well. And one thing that I don’t have I don’t have like a full blown page about coaching and things. But there’s a little button there. I’ve had people request Hey, doctors and non doctors asking me can I do more than just answer a couple of questions or could you be my coach for a little while? And I say yeah, we can do that. So something I haven’t really advertised but it’s something that I can do and do whether it’s marketing, some strategies for new patients growth, those types of topics. If you’re interested, just email me Justin at a doctor’s perspective. net. As always, listen, critically think and implement. Have a great week.
We just went hashtag behind the curtain. I hope you will listen and integrate with some of these guests have said by all means please share across your social media. write a review and go to the show notes page. And all the references for today’s guests. You’ve been listening to Dr. Justin trust Claire giving you a doctor’s perspective.
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
- E 74 Networking Referral Groups- Learn to Maximize Them Tammy Urbach 4BR
- E 93 Transcription Services Behind The Scenes with Ben Walker
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Time to get creative when trying to sponsor running clubs, marathon groups, Athletic Groups and…